I've noticed that compared to every other vehicle I've driven, the stopping power on my corolla isn't up to par. I just replaced the front brake pads and nothing changed except it doesn't squeak anymore. What are the best and most cost-efficient ways of increasing my stopping power?
I've heard of getting stainless steel brake lines, but I don't know how much they'll help.
Can the calipers on the front be replaced with bigger calipers that can accommodate bigger pads? What about on the rear disc brakes; can they be fitted with bigger shoes or something?
We don't have rear disc brakes. We have Drums. Also all the stopping power comes from the front of our cars. If you want to improve stopping power change brake lines, brake fluid, tires, and rotors.
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There's several threads already on the subject of brake upgrades.
Goodridge stainless steel brake lines seem to provide the most bang for the buck in terms of stopping feel.
You can upgrade the front calipers from single-piston to dual-piston (and larger brake pad surface area). Or go whole hog with a big brake kit, which can include four-piston calipers and larger rotors. This will probably require larger wheels than the stock 14". Or, if you're lucky, you can track down all the parts for the AE111 Superstrut.
You can also replace the rear drum brakes with disc brakes from an AE101. Robr20v has some rear disc brake kits for sale. You'll also should get a proportioning valve that won't bias brake fluid pressure as if you still had rear drums.
I'm currently in the process of upgrading my front calipers to Celica ST165 dual-piston, with Brembo blank rotors and Hawk ceramic pads, replacing the rear drum brakes with disc brakes (and replacing the proportioning valve), and replacing the soft brake lines with Goodridge SS lines.
(Although I still need an interchange / part number for what brake pads the rear AE101 calipers need.)
You can read my previous posts on this for more details.
Last edited by zuzu_; 09-09-2009 at 11:09 AM.
Reason: grammar
zuzu_, you can use OEM USDM AE92 GT-S pads for the rear calipers as they are backwards compatible, that's what I'm currently using on my rear discs.
To comment on the AE111 Superstrut conversion, I was comtemplating this too, but work and downtime required if a part wears out or needs replacing will be a PITA since everything has to be imported and suspension components are normal wear and tear items, so for me it was not worth it.
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Originally Posted by TURBO Das Automagazin
A BRZ, a curvy mountain road makes one liter of happiness hormones.
Biggest influence in stopping power are your tires and friction materials. If you can lock the front wheels up right now - adding SS lines, huge rotor, and multi-piston calipers won't help stop you any shorter.
- SS lines will improve brake "feel" - brake pedal will not feel as "squishy".
- Installing a larger rotor will help increase brake capacity - the ability to stop well by keeping brake fade minimized (think of your rotor as a heat sink).
- Multi-piston calipers or moving to a fixed mount caliper vs the OEM sliding caliper will improve brake feel and even out pad wear. They generally have the ability to use larger pads as well (pads act as heat sinks
as well).
- Pad material can have a huge impact on braking performance. Take an OEM pad vs a better street pad (Hawk HPS, Porterfield R4S, EBC, Axxis, etc.) - just the increase in initial "bite" of the aftermarket pad can make braking feel much better.
- Tires can be one of the biggest impact. Just upgrading to a tire with better traction can make a huge difference in stopping distances.
On my car - just switching from the pathetic OEM Goodyear Integrity GL A/S to aftermarket tires of the same size, running OEM pads - a night a day difference in stopping. Couple that with a pad upgrade on stock rotors and calipers - even more of an impact. After that - improvements will just increase brake sensitivity, braking feel. I would upgrade the rear drums to discs, before I go all out on big rotors, better calipers, SS lines.
My current setup - Yokohama AVID H4S All-Season tires in a 195/60R14 (littler wider than OEM), OEM caliper, Brembo blank (OEM rotor), OEM lines, Hawk HPS pads - stock rear drums. I've easily shaved 20-30 feet off my 60MPH to stop braking distances, with much less brake fade and higher initial bite. That high initial bite is actually the best part of the setup, IMO, able to scrub off a good amount of speed initially, really reduces my braking workload. OEM pads I burned up in about 25K miles (DC Metro traffic), Hawks, in the past, have been giving me about 40K+ miles - my current set has over 60K miles and still got plenty of life.
Biggest influence in stopping power are your tires and friction materials. If you can lock the front wheels up right now - adding SS lines, huge rotor, and multi-piston calipers won't help stop you any shorter.
- SS lines will improve brake "feel" - brake pedal will not feel as "squishy".
- Installing a larger rotor will help increase brake capacity - the ability to stop well by keeping brake fade minimized (think of your rotor as a heat sink).
- Multi-piston calipers or moving to a fixed mount caliper vs the OEM sliding caliper will improve brake feel and even out pad wear. They generally have the ability to use larger pads as well (pads act as heat sinks
as well).
- Pad material can have a huge impact on braking performance. Take an OEM pad vs a better street pad (Hawk HPS, Porterfield R4S, EBC, Axxis, etc.) - just the increase in initial "bite" of the aftermarket pad can make braking feel much better.
- Tires can be one of the biggest impact. Just upgrading to a tire with better traction can make a huge difference in stopping distances.
On my car - just switching from the pathetic OEM Goodyear Integrity GL A/S to aftermarket tires of the same size, running OEM pads - a night a day difference in stopping. Couple that with a pad upgrade on stock rotors and calipers - even more of an impact. After that - improvements will just increase brake sensitivity, braking feel. I would upgrade the rear drums to discs, before I go all out on big rotors, better calipers, SS lines.
My current setup - Yokohama AVID H4S All-Season tires in a 195/60R14 (littler wider than OEM), OEM caliper, Brembo blank (OEM rotor), OEM lines, Hawk HPS pads - stock rear drums. I've easily shaved 20-30 feet off my 60MPH to stop braking distances, with much less brake fade and higher initial bite. That high initial bite is actually the best part of the setup, IMO, able to scrub off a good amount of speed initially, really reduces my braking workload. OEM pads I burned up in about 25K miles (DC Metro traffic), Hawks, in the past, have been giving me about 40K+ miles - my current set has over 60K miles and still got plenty of life.
It seems like fitting disc brakes on our gen8s would be way more difficult than upgrading the front calipers/rotors/pads/lines, seeing as they would have to be imported and seem to be quite rare and expensive.
So I'd like to just work with the front for now. I can do rotors, calipers, lines, and pads I think, but how do I know which ones would fit? Can someone recommend a good aftermarket rotor and caliper?
Depends on what you are after. Like mentioned earlier - if you can lock the wheels on a stop, you will not be able to stop any sooner with upgraded brakes - as the tires are your weakest link there.
I wouldn't say rear discs are rare and expensive. Hard to find in good shape, yes, expensive, well depends on your metric for "expensive". To jump onto decent calipers, rotors, pads, and lines - collectively will run much more than typical rear disc brake conversions.
If you are looking for a track package - something that will take several hot laps and not fade away - there are some options.
Wilwood makes universal setups to upgrade your brakes - this is a custom option, will have to work with Wilwood to find fitment, but it is possible.
BBK (BIG Brake Kits) are not inexpensive. Like most of these type of upgrades, you have to pay to play. An alternative option is to upgrade the rotor size, while retaining the OEM sliding caliper. You just need to use a caliper bracket to move the caliper further away to fit the larger diameter rotor. Of course, you have to verify fitment with your wheels in either of those options. Some BBK kits require 18" or larger wheels to clear the rotors/calipers.
You don't have to go with imported rear discs for the 8th gen. That would be the easiest swap, as their chassis is nearly identical to ours. But others have used rear discs from other vehicles - Celica, MR2, etc. As with any modification, need some work to make it fit.
For a street application - you may not see BBK systems show their stuff. Car & Driver did a handful of great articles on the dynamics of braking. They found that upgrading the pads and tires had the maximum impact in braking distance. In a track situation, upgraded components started to show their worth, as the brakes were subjected to incredible amount of abuse. Each car performs differently, some have better brake cooling than others or better chassis dynamics that help braking. Same can be said for slotted and/or drilled OEM sized or larger brake rotors. Sure they look nice, but performance will vary with pad choice and how the car will be driven. Usually in a street application - most find that they "lost" braking performance with a drilled or slotted rotor. In a BBK setup - a different story, since the rotors are so much larger, drilling/slotting them can help cut down on unsprung mass. Pads nowadays don't "out gas" like they did decades ago. Some brake companies are coming clean and now saying that drilling doesn't work well for the street and slotting leads to even pad wear - no performance gain.
Best bang for the buck that I found (after ditching the OEM tires) - Hawk HPS, Brembo blanks, and fresh brake fluid every 30K miles. Pads were about $75, rotors were about $35 each, good quality brake fluid about $12/liter. Less than $180 w/shipping - in a few hours install and proper bedding in (this is critical) = completely different braking performance.
Depends on what you are after. Like mentioned earlier - if you can lock the wheels on a stop, you will not be able to stop any sooner with upgraded brakes - as the tires are your weakest link there.
I wouldn't say rear discs are rare and expensive. Hard to find in good shape, yes, expensive, well depends on your metric for "expensive". To jump onto decent calipers, rotors, pads, and lines - collectively will run much more than typical rear disc brake conversions.
If you are looking for a track package - something that will take several hot laps and not fade away - there are some options.
Wilwood makes universal setups to upgrade your brakes - this is a custom option, will have to work with Wilwood to find fitment, but it is possible.
BBK (BIG Brake Kits) are not inexpensive. Like most of these type of upgrades, you have to pay to play. An alternative option is to upgrade the rotor size, while retaining the OEM sliding caliper. You just need to use a caliper bracket to move the caliper further away to fit the larger diameter rotor. Of course, you have to verify fitment with your wheels in either of those options. Some BBK kits require 18" or larger wheels to clear the rotors/calipers.
You don't have to go with imported rear discs for the 8th gen. That would be the easiest swap, as their chassis is nearly identical to ours. But others have used rear discs from other vehicles - Celica, MR2, etc. As with any modification, need some work to make it fit.
For a street application - you may not see BBK systems show their stuff. Car & Driver did a handful of great articles on the dynamics of braking. They found that upgrading the pads and tires had the maximum impact in braking distance. In a track situation, upgraded components started to show their worth, as the brakes were subjected to incredible amount of abuse. Each car performs differently, some have better brake cooling than others or better chassis dynamics that help braking. Same can be said for slotted and/or drilled OEM sized or larger brake rotors. Sure they look nice, but performance will vary with pad choice and how the car will be driven. Usually in a street application - most find that they "lost" braking performance with a drilled or slotted rotor. In a BBK setup - a different story, since the rotors are so much larger, drilling/slotting them can help cut down on unsprung mass. Pads nowadays don't "out gas" like they did decades ago. Some brake companies are coming clean and now saying that drilling doesn't work well for the street and slotting leads to even pad wear - no performance gain.
Best bang for the buck that I found (after ditching the OEM tires) - Hawk HPS, Brembo blanks, and fresh brake fluid every 30K miles. Pads were about $75, rotors were about $35 each, good quality brake fluid about $12/liter. Less than $180 w/shipping - in a few hours install and proper bedding in (this is critical) = completely different braking performance.
Fishexpo, I thank you for taking the time to write this up for me. That last paragraph basically told me everything I was looking for. I don't yet have tires for my new 16s, but with new tires my braking power will increase. Also, I don't have ABS, so will all of this be for naught?
+1 to what fish says about the HPS pads. paired with good tires they will bring you to a stop in a hurry without breaking a sweat. they do dust a little more and can be a touch noisier, but its a fair trade for the HUGE increase in performance.
fish, very well said. i would like to also add that with many big brake kits, the inital bite is much higher, which leads to locking up the tires sooner. not good for braking at all. while some people can stand a little noise with brake pads, i cannot. it drives me crazy. i hate noisy pads. i would rather deal with a bit more dust than noisy pads. but this is my opinion.
I've noticed that compared to every other vehicle I've driven, the stopping power on my corolla isn't up to par. I just replaced the front brake pads and nothing changed except it doesn't squeak anymore.
What pads did you replace with? Chances are if you used whatever was cheap at Autozone, you are going to get whatever was cheap at autozone performance. I recently changed mine, pads were worn, rotors were warped. I replaced with whatever napa's high line is, and the premium rotors. Car stops just as good as any other economy car I've owned. Something to think about.
Fishexpo, I thank you for taking the time to write this up for me. That last paragraph basically told me everything I was looking for. I don't yet have tires for my new 16s, but with new tires my braking power will increase. Also, I don't have ABS, so will all of this be for naught?
Also, do you think it's worth the $75-150 to get SS brake lines? sometime down the road at least.
SS lines would be a good investment down the road, but not something so critical that you need to jump on ASAP. Unless you have damaged OEM lines (cracked, leaking, otherwise damaged), in that case, it would be a great time to swap in some SS lines.
Yeah, sorry for that - "blank" as is plain rotors - no slotting, dimpling, drilling ,etc. Our OEM rotors seem to be Brembo blanks. When I replaced mine, visually, the Toyota original and Brembo replacements had the exact same casting marks and dimensions.
These upgrades will be valid for cars with and without ABS. I'd say they are even better in situations without ABS, as some ABS systems can get confused with very high friction pads.
Pretty much everyone summed up how Hawk HPS pads work. Little more bite than OEM, tends to dust more than OEM or ceramic composites, and can be noisy at times. Mine have been pretty trouble free, aside from having to wash the wheels more often. But I'd gladly trade brake dust for the increased stopping power, good brake modulation, and fade resistance of the higher performing pads. Noise can be attenuated with some pad silencer, but occasionally I get a squeak here or there.
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