Hey everyone, I appreciate anything you guys can input on with this problem I've been having. Here's the situation:
Pre-Cursor
About 6 months ago I was driving on I-5 at about 75 mph and slammed on the brakes to avoid rear-ending someone. All 4 wheels locked and the car skidded to a stop (not the whole way, just part of it was skidding). I'm not sure if this is what caused my problem, but read-on and see let me know what you think.
The Problem
Anyways, soon after my skid that I started hearing a constant thumping sound from the front wheels (usually 60+ MPH, but recently at less and less speeds). It sounds more like it's coming from the passenger-side front wheel. When I drove by myself, the noise is fairly mild. If I have any kind of passenger, they always ask me why my car is making such a racket. The noise is somewhat intermittent - usually it's very noticeable if I drive over a bump or dip in a smooth road. The bumping slowly gets less pronounced after I've passed the bad part in the road. What's also weird is that sometimes the noise fades in and out. It's always there but sometimes it's way worse then other times. I can't figure it out!!
Another thing that's strange is upon acceleration (FYI I have a manual 5 speed transmission) the whole car seems to shake front to back (shudder?). If I speed up to say 30 mph in 2nd gear (quickly revving it up) and then immediately get off the accelerator pedal while leaving it in gear, the car shakes again front to back a few times and then settles down as it decelerates in 2nd gear using engine braking. It feels really really bad >< and again, this has been getting worse.
OH! In addition, I did some research and the mechanical term is called trailer-hitching. The car acts like I'm towing something that's loosely shoving me back and forth as I accelerate/decelerate.
What's Been Done So Far...
1) Checked all the tires - dealer and everyone says my tires are fine and there are no excessive bald spots.
2) Had the car alignment done. The car doesn't pull to any direction, just the thumping noise. No change in the problem after this.
I took it into a trustworthy shop and had the mechanic go for a drive with me. He immediately suspected wheel bearing problems and said that mine were probably nearly total destruction because the noise was so bad. However, after we got out and took a look under the car he said the wheels move freely with no noise and aren't showing any signs of bearing failure.
His conclusion: The CV Shafts on both driver and passenger side has about 1-3" of play in it on all directions (I can move them up, down, left and right and he was nice enough to show me). He said that because it's so loose, it's causing vibrations at high speed and that the longer I drive with them like this, the worse the noise is going to get at lower speeds. This does make sense maybe to explain why the car shakes front to back upon acceleration/deceleration? The CV shafts are independently moving on their own causing the shaking of the car body? We didn't notice any tears in the boots either.
My problem with his conclusion is my research done on CV shafts. Every single article has said that I should hear a clicking sound when I turn - I don't experience that at all. The other articles I've read also say that most likely my wheels are out of balance - should I get that done before I waste my time with the CV shafts? However, this doesn't address the shuddering on acceleration and decelerating.
I hope this is detailed enough to get some input from you guys - I really don't feel like doing this dirty job if it's not 100% necessary. Plus it's throwing away around $180 in parts for both shafts and seals.
Let me know what you think, and thanks ahead of time!!
Last edited by notaloafer; 03-12-2011 at 11:05 PM.
I would actually agree with the mechanic's opinion... I can imagine that locking the wheels at highway speed can cause all sorts of problems with the CV joints. Do you have an automatic transmission or a standard?
Worn CV joints will make a clicking sound on turns but damaged joints can cause all kinds of problems including shuddering and thunking sounds. Acceleration shudders definitely point to a problem with the joints.
I know I wrote a lot so I expected people to skim a bit =P - I said I did have a 5 speed manual transmission. That's how I tested the trailer-hitching shudder thing I was talking about - by revving it up in 2nd gear and letting it settle back down again. It shudders on the initial acceleration, then when I let off the gas and let engine braking take over, it shudders again as it starts to rev down.
If there is indeed anywhere near that much radial play in the CV joints (and not just "in and out" lengthwise movement of the actual shaft), they do need replacement - badly. I'd start there and see what happens - if the issue continues, you're probably looking at a tire issue. Just because a shop or two said they're good means NOTHING to me - I've had a tire shop tell me there was no leak in a tire that had a screw in it, and I marked it, and yes, it was leaking.
Well that's why I like the shop I went to - I climbed underneath the car with the mechanic and he showed me himself by having me pull on the CV shaft. And yes, it did move around 1-3" in all directions (radially)!
After I finish the job, I'm planning on getting my wheels balanced anyways.
So, I replaced both CV shafts. Word to the wise - make sure that you get the right one 1st before you take apart the car! They gave me one that supposedly fit my car, but the splines on the replacement were about 1/100" bigger and that's no good. It wouldn't go in and I had to wait a extra day for another replacement.
Nonetheless, the new CV shafts are super tight and fixed all of the acceleration/deceleration problems. However, the new shafts did not fix the thudding problem. I took my car into a tire shop and they said my tires are nearly gone and that they're out of round which is probably causing the noise.
Just wanted to follow-up for anyone else who might be reading this in the future!
The Following User Says Thank You to notaloafer For This Useful Post:
Hey, thanks for the update. It seems not many bother to give an update, and it's always nice to know how the "cyber-diagnosis" works out.Should be right as rain with a new set of tires.
New tires and new rims have been installed - not previously used ones, but everything brand new (my old tires had a bald spot and they were a few thousand away from no longer being street-legal with the wear anyways). Anyways, I'm still having the following two problems:
1) Vibration at high way speeds. I was told my wheel bearings are fine, the CV shafts are brand new now, and I have brand new tires/rims that are in balance and my wheels are aligned. What else can it be??!?!?!
2) Loud POP noise whenever I go over a medium-sized bump in the road, or drive over a steep hill. This wasn't happening before - started right after I changed CV shafts. Feels like it's coming from right under my feet which could either be the inner joints for either side (transmission is under the pedal area) or the outer joint for the drivers side tire. Either way these are brand new shafts... they shouldn't already be shot!
The only idea I have now is that I bought re-manufactured CV shafts... could these new ones have come pre-damaged? The first drivers-side one they sold me had bad splines and I had to wait overnight to get a replacement. This made me skeptic from the get-go with the re-manufactured ones. I had no idea they had ordered me refurbished ones... the new ones are only a few bucks more in price.
Anyways, this is getting very frustrating. Again, the POP sound started right after I replaced my CV shafts. The old ones never did that. The vibration noise is still there, but sounds a little different now (much less intense, but still annoying!). I read somewhere to check and make sure the arm holding the ball-joint was tightened all the way (the two bolts and one nut)... I'll check that tomorrow.
ANY other ideas out there?
Last edited by notaloafer; 03-23-2011 at 12:11 AM.
There are snap rings on the inboard side of the axles, if they got bent or damaged during install, they could be causing the axle to slip out excessively causing that popping noise.
Did they check the front hubs, wheel bearing, sway bar bushings, endlinks, tie-rod ends, lower ball joint, control arm bushings, and loose brake caliper/torque plate as other possible suspects in the initial diagnosis?
Though it is unlikely, it is possible to get bad replacement CV joints, more so if they are refurbished or reman instead of new axles. Assuming you got the whole axle assembly. Wasn't that long after they will installed - I'd take them back and have new ones put in. At the very least, you can cross off a component from possible suspects.
Okay, so #2 is solved - I accidentally loosened the ball joint top nut and it had come nearly undone during my driving. After tightening that up, the popping noise from driving over bumps has been solved. Thank god for the cotter pin or the entire assembly might have come undone mid-drive...
Anyways, the vibration is still happening. I took it to the local Toyota Dealership and described the problem. The head mechanic was baffled all-in-all. It was funny because I started with one person, then ended up with a group of 4 mechanics standing around my car looking puzzled.... The wheels have zero play in all directions (indicating good wheel bearings and tie rod ends), the CV shafts have no play in them, and there is no abnormal sounds coming from either tire when spinning the wheel freely.
This brings me to my next area of investigation - perhaps there is something going on in the rear-end? That's the only thing the mechanics advise I look into. We didn't play with the rear end of the car at all or look into it. Any ideas there?
The dealership offered to look at the front/rear end thoroughly for something like 60 bucks. Think it's worth it? They said that as long as the noise is minor and isn't causing any drive-ability issues, that I might just want to let it go since the car is pretty old (147,000 miles) anyways.
After getting new tires the noise is much less pronounced but definitely still there. It phases in and out depending on how fast I'm driving and the kind of road surface - super smooth roads make it very noticeable.
Remaining Possibilities for vibration problem
1) Rear end problems?
2) Could my new wheels still be out of balance?
3) Engine motor mounts? Would they still cause this vibration problem even if I disengage the clutch at high speed and the problem is still there? I do notice heavy vibrations inside the car when revved to 2100RPM and held there, as well as idling at 700RPM.
Last edited by notaloafer; 03-23-2011 at 11:59 PM.
I would most definitely look at the motor mounts for damage or excessive play. Worn or damged mounts can cause all kinds of problems including thumbing/vibration, especually during heavy acceleration (seems to fit your symptoms pretty well considering you've changed pretty much everything else it might be), and yes, even with the clutch disengaged the problem could persist (movement of the pistons rocking the engine without the mounts to dampen the natural vibrations of the motor).
Not sure what else it might be... may be worth it to shell out the $60 for toyota trained technicians to look at it and see what they can find.
I'm not sure ignoring any sort of vibration is a good thing, no matter how minor. A minor vibration could turn into a very big problem, depending on what the cause is. I know a few people with corollas that have over 250K miles on them that have no vibration issues at all so I personally wouldn't just let it go until I know what exactly the problem was.
I went ahead and replaced both rear drum brake pads as well as had the drums turned. Apparently the place I bought the car from decided that my requirement of "new brakes" meant replacing the brakes on ONE SIDE OF THE CAR. My question for you guys - isn't that illegal?
The Toyota dealership here in Bellingham WA (Wilson Toyota) has lost my respect entirely - I had them check the brakes originally when I bought the car a year ago from a Kia dealership to insure that everything was actually done correctly. The dealership (Toyota service department) when they inspected the car, inspected the same side and not the other. They said everything was good to go. While troubleshooting the vibration noise, I checked both sides. The passenger side's pads were completely disintegrated, the pads were long gone, the drum unit was badly warped, etc.
Anyways, the noise is still there even with the new brakes. The dealership also said that the CV shafts I bought were the wrong size for my car. So far, Car Quest has given me wrong brake pads, wrong CV shafts, wrong wheel cylinders, etc. I'm not a huge fan of NAPA but everything I have gotten from them has been correct.
To sum up, I'm going to go ahead and replace the CV shafts again with the correct set, go into Car Quest and rip them a new one and return everything, and hopefully this will end the problems. The shop said everything else about my car is running perfectly.
Last edited by notaloafer; 03-28-2011 at 08:12 PM.
Do you feel this vibration througt the steering wheel, as in a "shimmy"? It might need an alignment, it's not a bad idea after disconnecting the spindles to replace the CV's anyway.
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02 Corolla Front End Thudding
Should be right as rain with a new set of tires.
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