Low RPM Growl When Accelerating and Transaxle lateral play
Recently purchased a used car. The engine is a '99 Corolla 1ZZFE 1.8L with a 3sp Automatic. When I test drove it, noticed it had a growling/slight rattling noise at low RPM's when starting from a stop (more pronounced if you try to accelerate hard) that would go away as soon as the speed of the car picks up after starting from a stop or, if you don't accelerate very hard. I thought it might be a bad torque converter or bad CV joints (wishful thinking) and When driving the car home, everything seemed ok, but after a while on the highway, the exhaust cam froze due to prior neglect/oil lines blockage and of course the timing chain sheered off the gear on the end of the cam (found out later the failure was due to oil lines in the head plugged up due to the engine being all gummed up and will go into about all that in a nother story)
At any rate, rebuilt the eng, oversized the pistons and crank, rebuilt the head and replaced all else new and put the engine back so I could then start work on the growling sound issue which was exactly the same after engine rebuild so I found a used transmission that supposedly had only about 15k on it, and just replaced the current transmission and torque converter with the other, and put in new axles. Well, figured I had the growling sound licked, but low and behold it's still there, so I blocked and braked the back wheels and got under the hood and would slowly raise the RPM's while engine under load. Sadly, the growling/rattling sound at low RPM's when accelerating from a stop or locking brakes and slowly raising RPM's while in Drive which is pretty loud I might add, isn't coming from the tranny or torque converter and has nothing to do with CV joints, but is coming from the front end (timing chain area).
Original timing chain and gears were in spec, and replaced both guides and tensioner. I have three questions. One is about the growl, and the others is about the transmissions in these cars (it's a 3sp auto) and are some of the reasons I went for another transmission which has also got me stumped.
1) Does anyone know what this growl/rattle under load at low RPM's coming from the front end is all about??? I've read by some master tech's that don't think much of this engine, but no direct comments about either of these problems...
2) One of the reasons I went for a replacement tranny was due to the lateral play with the transaxle at where the inner CV joint spline go into the transaxle (no, it's not in and out play I'm talking about). Even on the replacement used tranny that's supposed to only have about 15k on it, when pushing on the outer portion of the inside CV joint, it moves side to side (and up and down) about 1/8 inch, and maybe 1/32 to 1/16 at the dust cup on the axle right at the transmission. I've owned other toyota's before, as well as other foreign FWD cars, and all were nice and snug where the CV axle goes into the transaxle (no lateral play to speak of) regardless of mileage, which raises concerns that I may also been lied to about the replacement tranny Does this tranny have that much lateral play on the output bearings at the CV Axle spline?)
3) I have never worked on/owned a corolla before and this tranny has a 'howl' that can be barely heard over the engine noise at an idle ( or a somewhat high pitched whirr. Both the original as well as replacemnt tranny sound the same) You can hear it much more if you open up the air filter housing (that is bolted to the tranny via the engine mount). Is this 'normal' for this 3 spd tranny?
Thanks!
Last edited by ToyotaBuba; 09-24-2011 at 07:44 PM.
Reason: Additional findings:
Well, after some more 'load' tests, find that there are two growls. One as stated in item #1 above, and a second which was ocurring with the original transmission which I will label as item # 4).
With the growl (a deep throated growl/slight grinding noise), definitely is coming from the transmission. On the original transmission, the deep throated growl would occur when taking off from a stop under heavy acceleration until speed of the car catches up with the RPM's but not if accelerating less strenuously from a stop. On the replacement transmission, it doesn't seem to occur under heavy accelerating from a stop, but when I did some more 'load' tests with the car in Drive and all brakes applied and raise the RPM's up to about 1,500 RPM's or higher, the deep throated growl/slight grinding noice in the transmission kicks in until I back off of the RPM's.
4) Does anyone know what the heck this deep throated growl is?
On these 4 Q's, it would help if I could get a couple or three seasoned auto/techie types that have specifically dealt with/previously identified the cause of these noises and the issue of the axle lateral play at the point of the transaxle to give some feedback, as they all seem to be significant / possibly serious issues that I don't seem to find much detailed discussion / identification about on other threads.
Thanks!
Last edited by ToyotaBuba; 09-24-2011 at 07:49 PM.
Reason: Additional Findings:
I had a noise when accelerating from a stop and replaced the belt tension pulley. If you see it flopping around on idle I'd replace it. Around $100 I think.
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$100 for a pulley? ouch, I cringe if I have to pay more than $20 for one... That's about the only thing I didn't replace when rebuilding, as the idler bearing spun smooth, but maybe the bearing is too worn so as to exhibit a growling characteristic when hard accel, even when I re-packed the bearing? I do have a new spare and will throw that on and see if that will fix the engine front end growl, and let you know the outcome.
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I'm having the same issue only without the grinding noise. It sounds like its coming from the intake. from a stop i get the growl and it feels like the power is trying to get there but it can't. then the power hits and the car take off like a rocket.
Am still grappling with the growling issue and am still waiting/hoping that someone out there in Toyota Land that's chummy with these transmissions will speak up and help us understand what's going on. I did put some Lucas Transmission treatment in it a few days ago as it claims it will 'stop' band slippage, as it sure sounds like on mine (and yours also) the bands are slipping/chattering that I think is creating the growl when trying to accelerate from a stop. It sure sounds like the bands loose grip and chatter creating the growl. At any rate, the growl/chattering reduced significantly after putting the lucas trans treatment in. And yes, as soon as those bands stop chattering/growling and take hold, mine too seems to take off like a rocket It still breaks loose and growls just a little if I accelerate hard, but not nearly as bad further indicating it is indeed bad/worn out bands, but sure hope some seasoned auto enthusiasts/tech's would comment on this as well as the lateral play problem on the output bearings.
One note for Gil. Am going to replace the fan idler pulley next week when I replace the alternator and will let everyone know if it turns out that's the intermittent growl on the front end of the engine. The pulley tensioner itself seems to be ok, as it is still real stiff puts a lot of pressure on the tensioner arm, so hoping it's just the pulley.
Sounds like your tranny is in better shape than the 'new' one I purchased which turned out to be ragged out. I'm not real familiar with Lucas products, but on the bottle it says "Polymetric film renews worn bands to stop slipping", so I thought I'd give it a try. The parts store only had the 24oz bottle size, so not sure what other sizes there are.
On the back it said add the 24 oz bottle to existing trans fluid, saying a second bottle may be needed in larger or badly worn transmissions, but then says smaller transmissions/vehicles use 12 oz, or 1/2 of the 24oz bottle. I put in 1/2 of the bottle, and although it helped on mine, it didn't stop the slipping/growling/chattering completely so I'm probably going to add the other 1/2 to see if that will help do the trick at least in the interim until I can figure out what's going on/what to do. It doesn't however 'fix' the problem as worn out bands/disc's are worn out...
Sure wish some of the seasoned tranny tech's that know this tranny would speak up and help us out, so we both (and probably many others, as I see already many hundreds have been reading this post) will have a better understanding of what's going on not only in regards to the growling/chattering, but also about what to expect regarding loose output bearing clearances.
ok, i found out the issue on my corolla. It was the intake. the section of intake in the left corner of the front bumper seems to be damaged. i removed the intake tubing from around the battery essentially turning it into a bootleg SRI. the throttle response is back. Vibrating noise gone. most likely a bad idea but i lost track of time and had to pick up my kids, i jump on the highway. the car ran like a new machine.
Well, it's been a while, but have some news and frustrations to report.
1) First, Yes, the passenger side growl or chattering was in fact the idler pulley tensioner and gads, what a rip-off. On each end is a plastic bushing that clips in, and then a steel sleeve that the mounting bolt goes through. It is that plastic bushing that wears and then allows the whole darn thing to rattle like crazy. Well, in looking at a few, it was not hard to see that the cheap plastic bushings just snap in, and IF the auto parts industry would sell them which probably would cost a mere 10c a piece for a manuf to make, then even selling a piece of plastic for a few bucks a piece, would be far more ethical than having to buy the whole tensioner for $100-$150.
At any rate, I looked high an low, but could not find any source for those bushings. Anyone know a source for just the bushings? Being miffed about having to spend $100+ to replace 2 bushings that probably don't cost 20c to make, I found that 1/2" section of pvc black plastic pipe that I picked up at the hardware store did the trick. the OD is just a tad bit to big, so you sand down the end to reduce the OD until you can barely get it started to push into one of the end of the tensioner, then hammer the sensioner onto the pipe until you get the pipe all the way, then use a hack saw and carefully cut off any extruding sections of the pipe. You will have to custom size 2 washers to take up the void that the shoulder of the bushings provided so that the ID of the washers will slip over the steel sleeve that goes through the bushing. Make sure that the washers are not too thick, else when tightening the bolts, the bolt will tighten down on the washers and ends of the tensioner vs. tightening down on the steel sleeve. But, I'm not sure if the sheer/abrasion temp properties of ABS plastic will hold up, as the top bushing will get pretty hot, as it's bolted to the head. Will post later when it gets hot, to let others know how it holds up.
The other thing you must do, is slightly enlarge the ID of the custom bushing so that the steel sleeve can be inserted. If you have the right drill or reamer size, then that should do the trick. If not, then I found I had a round drill rasp that just happened to be the right size, but be sure to quickly do a one pass, else the rasp will quickly take out too much plastic. And, if at all possible, use a drill press, as it is more steady. If anything, drill it out just slightly undersize, and finish enlarging carefully with a round file to where the sleeve will just barely be able to be pressed in. Trust me, you want it a bit too tight vs. too loose, as heat, wear pressure will soon enough enlarge the ID of the bushing. I also put some high temp grease in there in hopes the bushing won't wear too fast. I could not find any source of plastic pipe that size made out of nylon 6 which more than likely is what the bushings are made out of as it has a high tensil/wear factor as well as higher melting point than other plastics (as well as most radiator caps these days, which is also another trick I found if needing to weld a pin-hole leak on a radiator cap, regular black tie wraps are many times made out of nylon 6. Use a variable heat heat gun and heat up to but not to where the plastic starts to bubble, and use the tie wrap as a welding rod. Did it on a radiator recently, and worked like a champ!
At any rate, does ANYONE know of a source for JUST the plastic bushings for these belt tensioners? If so, please let me and everyone else know. No need to spend $100-$150 when the only thing wrong is 2 worn out plastic bushings that just snap in, that probably costs only about 10c a piece to manuf...
2) Regarding the transmission. The growl on the driver side when attempting to accelerate from a stop is definitely worn out forward clutches per what the trans shop said. I was also told that the 3sp transmissions are definitely prone to being trash due to the output bearings on the transaxle where the CV shafts go in, getting worn to the point that not only do the cv axles float around to where the seals can't stop oil from leaking out, it damages the casing to where the transmission shops can't even rebuild the transmission. So, there is a good chance after spending gads, what $1000 to $1500 to have a trans shop pull the trans and dismantle the trans, would find out it's not rebuildable, which is not acceptable, so am going to consider going to the 4sp which I'll start a separate thread about.
3) Regarding the engine rebuild and piston mods to deal with oil loss. Adding 4 extra holes in the oil ring groove (be sure to angle the hole ever so slightly downlward towards the inside, and don't drill the outside 2 on each side so far out that you drill into the side of the skirt, adding a total of 4, and enlarging the existing 4 seems to have done the trick. Have put now probably 2k on the engine and so far, absolutely no drop in oil level. I have however held back on high speed driving, as this car with the 3sp sucks when it comes to gas mileage when driving over 50mph. The car seems to get better gas mileage at lower speeds, up to about 55mph which is about 22-24mpg w/o using the A/C (A/C pulls the gas mileage down by 2-4 mpg) and mostly city driving. I read where those with the 4sp auto and even more so with the 5sp manual are getting 38+ highway, but with the 3sp, 3,000 to 4,000 rpms just sucks the gas trying to drive over 60mph, so am seriously considering changing to a 4sp auto, and of course have Q's on that but will post that on a new thread.
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It still breaks loose and growls just a little if I accelerate hard, but not nearly as bad further indicating it is indeed bad/worn out bands, but sure hope some seasoned auto enthusiasts/tech's would comment on this as well as the lateral play problem on the output bearings.
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