I've been thinking a little bit about ATF additives and how they work. From what I can tell, the vast majority of them look, smell, and feel like normal ATF, and work quite well according to people who've used them. There are a few that are thicker, are an off color, or somehow differ in properties from normal ATF and these are the few that some people report issues with. That really got me to thinking.
What problems are these additives supposed to fix? Slippage, erratic shifting, not staying in gear, rough shifting, and a whole slew of other still-drivable conditions.
What are the symptoms of being 1/2qt to 1qt low on ATF? Slippage, erratic shifting, not staying in gear, rough shifting, and a whole slew of other still-drivable conditions.
When does someone typically use one of these additives? When they're 1/2qt or more low on ATF.
See where I'm going with this?
How can they guarantee compatibility with every ATF on the market? Pretty simple, they sell a base oil ATF, with no additives whatsoever, at a huge markup, and BAM it fixes all those issues (just like topping off with the correct ATF would do) and their product is compatible with every ATF on the market since it's the same oil, minus the additives and alterations that make each specific grade of ATF.
But, people report issues with these additives messing up their transmissions sometimes, right? Right. I've only ever seen this with additives that clearly were NOT straight ATF (different color, texture, or smell, thicker, thinner, or otherwise obviously not the familiar red syrup) or where someone had a legitimate transmission issue and adding the additive cause an overfill situation, making the problem worse.
I might just be forming conspiracy theories, here, but I'm fairly certain the vast majority of ATF additives that actually work are simply a generic universal ATF sold at an insane markup.
The majority of these potions were from the olden days. The potion makers still want to make money, so they continue to promote them. All fluids (oil, tranny, coolant, etc) are so good today there is no reason for adds IMO
That was only partially my point. I see a lot of reports of problems caused by these "potions" or no change at all from them.
The real point I was getting at is... The ones that don't have a slew of "hey this stuff broke my tranny" reports seem to coincide with the "this stuff looks and pours just like ATF" reports (non-potion). I wouldn't be surprised if these are just a generic "universal" ATF and the problems go away because the fluid is now at the correct level.
I have been using Lubegard for a long time. I don't add it when fluid is low, I add it to the new fluid when I'm doing a flush or filter change.
Has it helped? Years ago I added it to a turbo 400 just cause. I wasn't trying to fix anything but about a week later it started down shifting to 1st gear. Once it had upshifted to 2nd it would never down shift to first again based on throttle position. Aparently Lubegard fix it. Maybe there was some build up in the valve body it cleaned out.
The kicker for me is that in the last 9 months I have had 2 transmissions rebuilt and both times (from different places) they gave me a bottle of Lubegard and were very adamant that I use it. Just to clear things up neither of these failed because of Lubegard. I bought a Tahoe that needed a transmission & my wife drives a Pilot and those things are piles of crap. It was an output shaft bearing failure on that after 40K miles.
I'll keep using it until a transmission shop tells me not to, and we're a long way from that.
Has anybody else had any good or bad experience with Lubegard?
If people are having touble with addatives it could be the same type of situation as transmission flushes:
Guy's transmission is acting up, guy takes it in to have it serviced (adds addative at home?), 1 week later guys transmission craps out. Guy blames tramsission flush (or addative he added) even though the transmission was showing signs of failure to begin with.
Too little to late? Most likely.
I'm a FIRM believer in transmission flushes & Lubegard. Can you tell?
__________________
'98 Prizm 4spd 272K bought @ 221K for $300 Oil consumption fixed @ 265K for $247
How can they guarantee compatibility with every ATF on the market? Pretty simple, they sell a base oil ATF, with no additives whatsoever, at a huge markup, and BAM it fixes all those issues (just like topping off with the correct ATF would do) and their product is compatible with every ATF on the market since it's the same oil, minus the additives and alterations that make each specific grade of ATF.
But, people report issues with these additives messing up their transmissions sometimes, right? Right. I've only ever seen this with additives that clearly were NOT straight ATF (different color, texture, or smell, thicker, thinner, or otherwise obviously not the familiar red syrup) or where someone had a legitimate transmission issue and adding the additive cause an overfill situation, making the problem worse.
I might just be forming conspiracy theories, here, but I'm fairly certain the vast majority of ATF additives that actually work are simply a generic universal ATF sold at an insane markup.
What's everyone else think?
Pretty much what it is, a universal ATF with or without the red dye. Just look at the MSDS sheet, compare the specs of that to ATF - pretty much a spot on match. There are some VOA (Virgin Oil Analysis) done at BITOG (Bob Is The Oil Guy) forums - and many "tune ups" in a can that were similar to ATF were in fact ATF.
As for other oddball additives (greatly different viscosity, color, odor, etc.) - could be either incompatible additives/materials to the existing fluid or to the sensitive clutch bands/sludge that was sitting in the target transaxle.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bennie
Guy's transmission is acting up, guy takes it in to have it serviced (adds addative at home?), 1 week later guys transmission craps out. Guy blames tramsission flush (or addative he added) even though the transmission was showing signs of failure to begin with.
Too little to late? Most likely.
I'm a FIRM believer in transmission flushes & Lubegard. Can you tell?
Pretty much summed it up - most people that add these additives, the transaxle is likely on its last legs, could have died regardless if the additive did anything or not. Maintenance type additives generally don't hurt modern transaxles and fluids. If anything, the MSDS on Lubegard make it sounds like a universal thinner synthetic ATF (better solvency properties) with strong dispersion capabilities (keeps dirt/junk) in solution instead of dropping to the bottom of the pan.
Quote:
Originally Posted by leakyseals
The majority of these potions were from the olden days. The potion makers still want to make money, so they continue to promote them. All fluids (oil, tranny, coolant, etc) are so good today there is no reason for adds IMO
Pretty much, modern fluid chemistry is a quantum leap beyond previous generation of fluids. With many being designed for long duration service life - so many are turning to synthetics and advanced additives. Couple the better fluids with advanced engineering, materials designs, and tighter tolerances - these fluids work longer and better than before. Some additives are as you said, just snake oil - though there are some that won't hurt either. But none I would consider absolutely necessary for proper operation - if they were, they would already be a part of the design from the start. If we are talking about an older car or one that has suspect maintenance - then I could see the value of additives. But if bought new and you overall all aspects of service - save your money and stick with quality fluids and regular maintenance.
The problem with flushes stems from ill-maintained transmissions. At some point, an abused transmission gets to the point where the only source of friction in the thing is all the bits of metal floating in the original factory ATF with 250k miles on it. In these cases, a flush sill end the life of the transmission several thousand miles sooner.
Past that, yes, flushing can bee a good idea; but it can also be wasteful.
Regarding lubegard, I never said all additives were bunk, just pointing out my observations over the years. I'm not familiar with lubegard, specifically, but I have heard the same recommendations you mentioned, in recent research. I'd go so far as to say that lubegard is simply a very high quality ATF and the only reason to add it to the proper ATF, rather than using it straight, is that it does not have the dispersants and other add-ins that the proper grade ATF would have. It may well be helpful in that, being a higher grade base stock than proper ATF, it increases the overall base stock quality and, in that, it may be useful.
Regarding other "very similar to ATF" additives, I still think they're just ATF base stock sold at an insane markup.
Now, for my transmission maintenance schedule, which has worked for myself, friends, and family members, with an average of roughly 250k across all of our transmissions:
Drain pan (not flush) and refill every 30k until the first filter change.
Filter change at 120k
Drain and fill at 140k (20k)
Drain and fill at 150k (10k)
Drain and fill with every motor oil change thereafter (3-10k)
Filter change as close to 120k intervals as possible, not exceeding 120k (whichever drain and fill will take you over 120k, do it then)
So, when do you flush, on that schedule? If it's acting up and the fluid is clean; and ONLY if the fluid is clean.
Personally, I've never used anything other than the specified fluid in my transmissions, never had a flush, and never had a problem. My '99 Corolla is about to top 200k in the next month or two and she rides as smooth as the day she rolled off the lot.
I picked her up with 160k and the factory ATF and she was shifting rough and slipping; new filter the day i got her, drain and fill every oil change since then, and a new filter a year later for good measure (was clogged due to all the sediment the new fluid and proper care broke loose). Within 100 miles, there was a huge improvement in shifting and she slipping was completely gone; now, a year and a quarter later, the previous owner (a coworker of mine) doesn't believe that I didn't have a new tranny put in. A flush would have killed it in short order.
I didn't get to read fishexpo101's post until after I posted. He actually read the MSDS for lubegard and came to a conclusion exactly opposite of what I did, which also makes as much sense. Since his conclusion is based on research of that specific product, disregard my comments relating to lubegard.
Regarding lubegard, I never said all additives were bunk, just pointing out my observations over the years.
Just in case I came off a little defensive....
I won't take it personal if you hate Lubegard and every other addative. I just wanted to share my experience.
I think by far the most importaint thing is regular maint. I just continune to use Lubegard because at worst, it's done nothing at all.
I typically do flushes every 40K and filters every-other flush (80K). The last 3 cars I've bought have had over 200K miles when I bought them & they have served me well with this schedule.
I have done TONS of flushes over the last 15 years. I proabbaly do 15-20 a year. I have never had a problem afterwards and in some cases it resolved exisiting problems.
Sorry if I'm turning this in to a transmission maint. thread. That wasn't at all my plan.
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'98 Prizm 4spd 272K bought @ 221K for $300 Oil consumption fixed @ 265K for $247
Oh, no, no worries, this is the kind of discussion I was hoping to get going.
I think you're going a little overboard on the flushes, when a simple drain and refill of the pan would suffice; though, I know my 30k mile interval for drain/fill is a bit early, as well (and definitely the every oil change after 150k is a bit earlier than need be).
It all comes down to cost/benefit. Would you even have the issues that are solved by flushing if you used my schedule? No way to know. Does my schedule cost more or less than yours? We could compare notes to find out.
But, of course, it's a moot point, because we have no way to know if one is better than the other. If we could determine that your schedule was better than mine, then it would be worth however much more it might cost. If we could determine that mine was better, then it would be worth however much more it might cost, as well.
At the end of the day, your schedule works and you haven't had a transmission failure or any major issues, and the same can be said of my schedule, across many of my friends and most of my family.
At the end of the day, as long as we're on the road, all is good.
And of course there is the fact that abuse is about the only way to kill one of these things. I'd love to take credit for mine lasting this long but I can't, it's a well built car and I had nothing to do with that.
I definitely agree that proper maint. would have kept a lot of this issues from happening that I have seen resolved with new fluid.
And if you own a 3 speed don't forget that the diff. fluid is separate from the transmission fluid!
__________________
'98 Prizm 4spd 272K bought @ 221K for $300 Oil consumption fixed @ 265K for $247
That was only partially my point. I see a lot of reports of problems caused by these "potions" or no change at all from them.
The real point I was getting at is... The ones that don't have a slew of "hey this stuff broke my tranny" reports seem to coincide with the "this stuff looks and pours just like ATF" reports (non-potion). I wouldn't be surprised if these are just a generic "universal" ATF and the problems go away because the fluid is now at the correct level.
True. another reason that you dont see a slew of reports is because the problems caused by a potion or a universal won't show immediately, but may down the line, by then it becomes inconclusive what caused the failure. My opinion based on never losing a transmission or having a transmission problem - factory fluids only, drain and fill every other year. no, maybe one filter change. Some may say thats no good, but I get 250k+ that way. Do i think potions are bad? No, but I wont use them unless I'm trying to fix something. Would never use them in a good tranny.
I won't take it personal if you hate Lubegard and every other addative. I just wanted to share my experience.
I think by far the most importaint thing is regular maint. I just continune to use Lubegard because at worst, it's done nothing at all.
I typically do flushes every 40K and filters every-other flush (80K). The last 3 cars I've bought have had over 200K miles when I bought them & they have served me well with this schedule.
I have done TONS of flushes over the last 15 years. I proabbaly do 15-20 a year. I have never had a problem afterwards and in some cases it resolved exisiting problems.
Sorry if I'm turning this in to a transmission maint. thread. That wasn't at all my plan.
Bennie - All this info is relevant to the OP. Here's another. I drain the Tranny on my 2 Toyotas every other year. Thats approx 50%? Means the fluid in the both of them is on avg 20k. So I'm going with cheap coastal dex over the Lubeguard in the Corolla. In my judgement (they both look good, behave perfect) i see no need to change the filter(s) at this point. Can you tell us if the corolla filter has a filter media, or more of a screen (like the camry)?
Bennie - All this info is relevant to the OP. Here's another. I drain the Tranny on my 2 Toyotas every other year. Thats approx 50%? Means the fluid in the both of them is on avg 20k. So I'm going with cheap coastal dex over the Lubeguard in the Corolla. In my judgement (they both look good, behave perfect) i see no need to change the filter(s) at this point. Can you tell us if the corolla filter has a filter media, or more of a screen (like the camry)?
I'm not formiliar with the Camry filter but the Corolla filter does have media in it.
Here is a little more background on why I do transmission services the way I do.
The neat freak in me won't let me do half a fluid change so that's why I always do a 100% fluid change. As far as the filter is concerned, I like to drop the pan to inspect & clean everything (especially the magnet) so the filter may as well get done at that point. Dropping the pan tells you a lot about what's going on in there. Sometimes it's good news, sometimes it's bad.
A couple months ago one of my neighbors had a clunking (durring shifts) happening in his Saturn Outlook with about 120K miles. He was told that he needed a new transmission. I suggested we do a filter and flush. Here what I found:
I'm sure you could imagine what it looked like after a good cleaning but it really helps make the point to see the pics side by side:
This was not way worse than I normally see, it just confirmed that it needed to be serviced. He hasn't had a problem since.
Unless the manufacturer call out for something different I usually us SuperTech ATF from Walmart along with Lubegard. Maybe that's inconsistent to use cheap fluid & Lubegard but it's served me well.
__________________
'98 Prizm 4spd 272K bought @ 221K for $300 Oil consumption fixed @ 265K for $247
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