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Start up rattle after a hot soak

18K views 50 replies 8 participants last post by  Supersonic 
#1 ·
Hey guys
long time reader, first time poster.
I have a 07 corolla s auto 160000 km. I purchased this car a few months ago. When I restart the car when hot, the engine has a loud rattle that last for about 10 seconds. It does not do it when cold or if you immediately restart it once hot, only when restarted after 10-15 minutes hot. There are no code or any drivability problems and engine is nice and quiet after 10 seconds or so.


I have removed the belt and the rattle is still there. I also replace the timing chain tensioner with a new one from Toyota, and replaced the ocv filter but no change.


Here is a video of the rattle
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYlBM3ANTFg


Please share your thoughts on what you guys think the problem is. I would like to get this fixed.


Thanks
 
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#6 · (Edited)
The inlet timing gear does not tend to fail on the 1ZZ-FE... Mine has a very light chatter during warmed up idle, now at 298,500 km. I did adjust all my valves already.

Yours does sound a bit like a little diesel engine at startup, which is quite typical of a noisy inlet timing gear... You could start by checking if your VVT solenoid screen filter is clear.

http://www.toyotanation.com/forum/1...2008/629449-1zzfe-engine-rattle-start-up.html
 
#8 ·
I did remove and replace the vvti filter, it was clean but I had already bought a new one so I just replaced it, it did not help.


I also removed the valve cover and checked the valve clearance, they were all within specs.


The noise seems to be coming from the front/timing chain cover. My thoughts are its a problem with the cam phaser lock pin, and from what I can see there's really no way of testing it to be absolutely sure it the problem. I would hate to spend all that time and money replacing it only to find out it was not the problem. I'm running out of ideas for what to check next, lol
 
#9 ·
I didn't even listen but it sounds like you're describing lock pin chatter, my 2ZZ Celica has it as well. There's a pin that locks the cam timing sprocket when there's no oil pressure, the spring that works the pin gets weak over time and allows the pin to chatter at low oil pressure, or something like that. My understanding is it's an annoying noise that won't cause any real harm because the parts are all very hard steel. I'll still change mine if the opportunity arises though.
 
#10 ·
I should let you guys listen to mine... It's a nice light clickety chatter during idle, and I'm always wondering if it's the rods or piston slap instead. It's not the valves which are quiet since I adjusted them all, and neither are madbull99's valves noisy.
 
#14 ·
So looks like I'm going to have to change the cam phaser, darn!


Wondering if it could cause damage to the engine if I were to keep driving it like this? I could probably just live with the noise, just a little embarrassing when you start it up in a parking lot and sounds like a diesel lol.


Anybody ever change one? Wonder if I could just remove the valve cover, take off the tensioner, remove the center bolt holding it and lower it enough to take the chain off without removing the front cover? Would save a lot of labour time.
 
#15 · (Edited)
No need to remove the timing cover. When I adjusted all my valves, I removed both camshafts from the timing chain without unbolting the timing gears, and without removing the serpentine belt, etc.

Timing gear assembly installation instructions:
(TSB for faulty VVT–i actuator/timing gear in 2005-2007 Corolla/Matrix 1ZZ-FE and 2ZZ-GE)

http://www.toyotapart.com/M.I.L._ON_DTC_P0011,_P0012,_OR_PO016_T-EG005-07.pdf
 
#16 ·
My 2003 had an occasional start-up rattle from the actuator. A couple of Pennzoil Platinum/Quaker State Ultimate Durability Oil changes cleared it up.

This is much more common on the Camry models and can be sometimes remedied with a good cleaning of the actuator with things like Kreen added to the oil.

I would suggest first switching to an oil like PP or QSUD 5W20 or 5W30 and waiting a few oil changes.

Personally I would not replace the actuator as these engines are already noisy and there are no reports of damage.

Toyota actually has MUCH more problems with newer actuators on the Dual VVT-i engines and even had to recall some Lexus vehicles because of them coming apart. The 2ARFE has several large threads dedicated to this issue alone.

The 1ZZ actuator is much more reliable it seems.
 
#18 ·
Toyota has not had good luck with the actuators in the dual VVT-i engines. It is the same design as the 1ZZ actuator, but the lock pins have been having issues related to pressure bleed out at rate significantly higher and sooner than before. Most of the early 2009 and 2010 2ZRFE owners who complained were getting serious start up rattle at 20 and 30K miles. Here is a video of their noise:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J4R-9NliWFU

And a thread on it:

http://www.toyotanation.com/forum/3...sb-engine-knock-rattle-squeak-cold-start.html

The same applies the 2ARFE which someone else mentioned was caused by hydraulic lash adjusters, which seemed plausible:

http://www.toyotanation.com/forum/1...ck-rattle-noise-cold-startup-dtd-6-910-a.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SAdbytkBcc8

I am mentioning this to point out that the 1ZZFE is very solid in this regard compared to the newer designs and the noise OP has is not near as bad as the newer engines.
 
#19 ·
The 2GR-FE had that same rattle I believe, or was it a tick with camshaft codes? I know the engine must be removed and essentially the whole VVT-i system replaced.

My mom's (mine now) 2ZR-FE has just a bit of chatter on startup, as did my 1ZZ-FE until I switched to 5W-30 from W20. I will see if a good synthetic 5W-30 stops the chatter on the 2ZR-FE.
 
#21 ·
Just get a wire and hang it on the hood or something. Ford has special tools you lodge down into the guide to keep it from falling but I don't think Toyota does. I think technicians are told to hold it up with something when the cam shafts are removed.
 
#24 ·
Great thanks guy for all your advice. the cam phaser is about $250 cnd at the dealer so it will be a few weeks before I get a chance to change it. I will give a update once its done.


Just another question, anybody know how to check the timing chain to see if its stretched? like do you take a measurement to a x amount of chain links? just wondering how that's done.
 
#25 ·
INSPECTION
1. INSPECT TIMING CHAIN AND TIMING SPROCKETS
(a) Using a vernier calipers, measure the length of 16 links with the chain dully stretched.
Maximum chain elongation: 122.6 mm (4.827 in.)
If the elongation is greater than maximum, replace the chain.
HINT: Make the same measurements pulling at 3 or more places selected at random.

(b) Wrap the chain around the timing sprocket.
(c) Using a vernier calipers, measure the timing sprocket diameter with the chain.
NOTICE: Vernier calipers must contact the chain rollers for measuring.
Minimum sprocket diameter (w/ Chain): Camshaft 97.3 mm (3.831 in.) Crankshaft 51.6 mm (2.031 in.)
If the diameter is less than minimum, replace the chain and sprockets.

2. INSPECT CHAIN TENSIONER SLIPPER AND VIBRATION DAMPER
Measure the chain tensioner slipper and vibration damper wears.
Maximum wear: 1.0 mm (0.039 in.)
If the wear is greater than maximum, replace the slipper and/or damper.

3. INSPECT CHAIN TENSIONER
(a) Check that the plunger moves smoothly when the ratchet pawl is raised with your finger.
(b) Release the ratchet pawl and check that the plunger is locked in place by the ratchet pawl and does not move when pushed with your finger
 
#27 ·
Awsome, thanks Invader. Where do you get this stuff, lol. I paid for a subscription to Mitchell DIY and it does not tell me anything about checking for chain stretch. I even called the dealer for info and they would not tell me anything, said that info is just for technicians...blablabla lol
 
#26 ·
If you want to check chain stretch, you will need to remove the timing cover.

Personally, I would not replace the actuator in the first place. I would probably just try a different oil and filter combo and see if the noise changes or goes away.
 
#28 ·
If you want to check chain stretch, you will need to remove the timing cover.



I was thinking I could probably remove the valve cover and check the chain length across the cam gears?

Personally, I would not replace the actuator in the first place. I would probably just try a different oil and filter combo and see if the noise changes or goes away.


I would probably leave it if I knew for sure it would not cause engine damage. My fear is it might disintegrate internally and send some junk flowing in the oil and do damage.
 
#34 ·
I have a Vibe with the same mileage and same issue, after reading this thread, examining my cam phaser and chain tensioner, I believe the pressure relief valve on the oil pump must be stuck open. I think when it is cold the oil is thick enough to create instant pressure and no noise. When hot the oil is thin and draining back out of the chain tensioner and is thin enough to take several seconds to pump the tensioner back up. This is my best guess based on where the sound is coming from and only during hot start. I am running a cycle of Kreen in my M1 HM 5-30 oil. At the time of my next oil change I will add a quart if Berryman to the oil and run at 1500 rpm for 10 minutes and then change the oil. Hopefully this will free up anything that is holding that valve open. I'll report back.
 
#35 ·
Rattle has been fixed!
Convinced the noise was coming from the timing chain cover, I decided to change the remaining timing components, meaning the timing chain, guides, exhause cam and crank sprocket. Happy to report the rattle is gone. The chain was stretched about half a link from one end to the other compared to the new one. The guides had a little wear on them but nothing serious, and the sprockets were worn a bit also. When I removed the front cover, the inside wwas really black, varnish looking. Probably from neglected oil changes from the previous owner, witch is probably what led to the chain stretching.
 
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