Update: December 19, 2007:
No need to read through all the pages of this topic, Toyota has introduced a technical service bulletin to deal with this problem, number TSB2754.
To know if you have a problem requiring this solution, listen to the audio recording at the following link to shared thread containing MP3 recording, click on attachment at bottom of first post:
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Initial Post starts after following consolidated statistics, as of Dec 9, 2006
Poll results
Corolland .............Yes= 2...............No= 21...........Yes,but different sound= 2
MatrixOwners...........Yes= 9...............No= 52...........Yes,but different sound= 1
GenVibe................Yes= 11...............No= 34...........Yes,but different sound= 0
ToyotaNation-Corolla...Yes= 4...............No= 26...........Yes,but different sound= 0
ToyotaNation-Matrix....Yes= 0...............No= 15...........Yes,but different sound= 1
The creator of poll....Yes= 1
Total..................Yes= 27..............No= 148..........Yes,but different sound= 4
Grand total = 179
Percentage with identical sound = 15.1%
Percentage without sound = 82.7%
Percentage with different sound = 2.2%
While the polls are anonymous, there are posts in all these forums by owners claiming to have the identical issue.
For the purpose of identifying which models and production years are involved, they are as follows in no particular order:
There are no automatic transmissions among this group.
From MATRIXOWNERS.COM
MaidkarenD......'03..Matrix.XR......location:Illin ois
Lime............'03..Matrix.XR......location:Ontar io
PegMatrix.......'03..Matrix.XR......location:Manit oba
oracle (friend).'04..Matrix.XR......location:Ontario
Purplenv........'03..Matrix.XR......location:Ontar io
Bridgejoe.......'03..Matrix.........location:Minne sota
dominator.......'04..Matrix ........location:Ontario
Truckerbob......'03..Matrix.........location:Ontar io
chmodx..........'05..Matrix.........location:Virgi nia
TheCrispyness...'04..Matrix.........location:Illin ois
dexter..........'03..Matrix.XR......location:Ontar io
Montreal........'03..Matrix.........location:Quebe c
Ontario member..'03..Matrix.........location:Ontario
Listen to the sound recording of my engine and please participate in the poll questions which appear at the end of this post. The recording last 20 seconds and captures an event that typically lasts about 40 seconds. This happens at least once a day in winter since my 2003 Matrix was new. Corolla and Matrix use the same engine.
It is only because Toyota head office has recently thrown in the towel that I regretably feel obliged to place my complaint in the public domain. Also, there has been some confusion as to what the sound is really like. I am pleased to offer for the first time ever a recording.
In another thread titled "idle pulses when starting", many forum members participated in a discussion aimed at finding a technical solution for a rare characteristic that affected a small number of owners in the colder climates of North America.
What we all hoped to eliminate is a unique sound that our engines make during the second minute following a startup after the cars have sat in below freezing temperatures for a minimum of 6 - 8 hours.
For the most part, this issue appears to be cosmetic. Neither drivability nor fuel economy are negatively affected. Nor do these cars pollute.
Many dealerships have made honest, but unsuccessful, attempts to find a solution.
The turning point for me was when I realized that I could pull the fuse on the engine computer and make this sound go away for 2 days at a time. I concluded that no single engine component was defective, rather that all my engine components behaved in a unique combination so as to challenge my engine computer to its limit in order to properly manage the engine when cold.
The sound you are hearing is when the engine software can no longer reconcile all its objectives regarding long term pollution control and keep the idle speed smooth at the same time.
If I were Toyota, I would not want to change the multi-million dollar software of their engine computer in order to satisfy a handfull of unlucky owners. Nevertheless, I paid a full price for my new car and did not end up with one that sounds like all the other Toyotas in my city. Toyota writes that my car is not “abnormal”. But it doesn’t sound normal to me. How about you?
Please vote in the poll and post comments which address the following:
1) how objectionable would you find this sound were your car to make it at the same frequency and for the same time duration as mine, and
2) if you were offered for sale a second-hand Corrola that made this sound, would you offer less money to purchase it, and if so, how much less money, bearing in mind that this issue is strictly cosmetic?
Thanks in advance for your participation.
.
Last edited by montreal; 12-19-2007 at 06:17 PM.
Reason: to announce new official TSB solving problem
hmmm.. I have an 89 Corolla GTS with a 4AGE motor.. now this is a 16yr old car and its got 340km on it.. well, my car used to do the same thing when it idled, it revved up and down. This started after I let Mr Lube do a throttle body cleaning, and I finally figured out how to get rid of it later on. All I had to do was find the idle adjusting screw and turn it up first to make the car rev steady at about 2000rpm.. then I gave it a few seconds and turned the screw down to lower the revs until they were at a steady 900-1000rpm, which is practically normal for a 4AGE. Before doing this.. my motor would go from 1500rpm and jolt to like 2000rpm then back down to 1500rpm. Of course this only happened when it was cold out and it didn't when it was hot.. it went away after the adjustment and never came back.
finally figured out how to get rid of it later on. All I had to do was find the idle adjusting screw and turn it up first to make the car rev steady at about 2000rpm.Try this with your car, hopefully it will work.
Unfortunately my car doesn't have an adjusting screw to better control the idle bypass air supply.
It is the computer that controls the Idle Air Control valve directly.
I think the computer is just ordering too much gas to be injected for some mysterious reason. Then it gets all upset because it sees the rpms climb higher than it predicted.
NP hope you get your problem fixed.. sounds like the ECU is malfunctioning or miscalculating anyways.
That's what I think.
The problem is that the calculations are already optimized so that the millions of Toyotas in North America pass the pollution tests.
Toyota is not going to alter this program so that a few hundred owners like myself with marginal engine components can be saved. The risk of unforeseen sideeffects from a program change is too great. I certainly wouldn't touch the program if I was them.
Ok I have to ask a few questions first. The sound I hear sounds like the cycling of increasing and decreasing engine RPM. Is that the issue you're reporting?
Now I didn't see any info on what year and version of Matrix you have? What's the mileage? Have you made any modifications to engine, exhaust, drivetrain? Have you kept up with mainteance? This info might be important - I've seen wonky automatic transmission issues cause because someone when 25k on a single oil change. (wtg Mazda!). Now there are enough differences in parts between Corolla and Matrix to make them distinct cars so it's tough to know where to start.
Have you contacted Toyota Canada at 1-888-TOYOTA-8 and spoken to someone in their Customer Relations department? Do this yourself - don't let a dealer do this.
With the exception of the dealer...has your car been inspected by someone from Toyota Canada head office (ie: has someone from Toronto come out to see the car...or was it shipped to Toronto for inspection?).
I hear some bubbling sound in the audio file. I think that is what you are trying to point out. My 1ZZ (same as your Matrix engine) Corolla S did not have any bubbling sounds like that. It does not seem normal. You will have to get it checked out by a mechanic at your Toyota dealership.
__________________ SSM 05 Corolla XRS 6 Spd VVTL-i 2ZZ-GE /04 Corolla S 1ZZ-FE (sold)
1) The sound I hear sounds like the cycling of increasing and decreasing engine RPM. Is that the issue you're reporting?
2) what year and version of Matrix you have?
3) What's the mileage?
4) Have you made any modifications to engine, exhaust, drivetrain?
5) Have you kept up with mainteance?
6) Have you contacted Toyota Canada at 1-888-TOYOTA-8 and spoken to someone in their Customer Relations department?
7) With the exception of the dealer...has your car been inspected by someone from Toyota Canada head office ?
8) Are there any engine codes generated?
Answers:
1) Yes, those are the engine rpms that you hear when the car is idling, and only during the second minute, following a cold start with no one touching the gas pedal.
2) This is a 2003 base model Matrix with option package B (A/C).
3) The current mileage is 51 k kilometers ( 32 K miles) but the problem started the first week I brought the car home new in February 2002.
4) No modifications.
5) All scheduled maintenance done by the dealer.
6) I sent at least 4 e-mails to Toyota Canada (often to a contact person as opposed to the general mail box). Their responses thanked me for my submissions and said that my messages were being forwarded to the department concerned. One response said that there had not been other complaints similar to mine.
7) No Toyota person other than my Toyota dealer has looked at the car.
8) No engine codes were noted in all of the three scans taken.
As I have said many time since I discovered that I can make the problem temporarily go away by resetting my ECU computer memory, this is a software bug which only surfaces on a handful of vehicles that have many engine components on the borderline of being out of spec. The computer considers it a higher priority to minimize pollution than to provide a cosmetically smooth idle when cold.
Additionally. my car was inspected last month by an independant garage owned by a famous ex-rally car driver and popular local print and radio journalist. All his head mechanic could say was that the front O2 sensor is not operating during the second minute following a cold start. My O2 sensor had been changed during the first failed attempt (last February) by my dealer to fix the problem. Toyota head office refused to answer the following 3 questions:
"If you felt it necessary to change the O2 sensor because you felt that it might be causing the problem, wouldn't you appreciate knowing that the replacement sensor does not perform any better?" and
"Perhaps the O2 sensor plays no role during the second minute and you needlessly changed my sensor?", and
"At what point does the computer start monitoring the O2 sensor?"
Thanks for your detailed interest. I am more concerned in having your legal opinion about this unfixable cosmetic defect.
My 1ZZ (same as your Matrix engine) Corolla S did not have any bubbling sounds like that. It does not seem normal.
You will have to get it checked out by a mechanic at your Toyota dealership.
This was done twice and the technical support people at Toyota head office have written that my engine is "not abnormal". All this happening within the 3 year warranty period for a problem that started the first week after I bought the car.
My dealership service manager suggested that I should be able to live with this cosmetic problem.
The overwhelming response in this and three other similar threads is claiming that most people would not buy a second hand Toyota which makes this sound even with the assurance that the noise is not the sign of anything wrong with the motor.
The purposes of this poll is to measure the degree of public opinion in preparation for a Class Action Law Suit.
I don't hear anything unusual - except for the non-OEM exhaust.
What is unusual is that fewer than one car in a thousand (by my estimation) will make this sound when cold with no one touching the gas pedal. And the exhaust is what came from the Toyota assembly line in Cambridge Ontario. The whole car including the exhaust is OEM.
my car has a REALLY crappy idle at start.. and it goes away when my cpu is reset too.. I have an 01 btw.. but the thing is it idles too low
OK, If I understand you, you are saying that after you reset the cpu, the car will cold idle at a reasonable steady rpm (say between 1400 and 2000) but after a few days, the cold idle becomes lower and the smoothness disappears because the idle is too low?
If true, we may be suffering in the same way.
In my case, my cpu learns to increase cold idle speed unreasonably when faced with a set of marginal engine components that suggest that the injection volume should be increased.
In you case, I suspect, your cpu learns to decrease the cold idle speed unreasonably when faced with a set of marginal engine components that suggest that the injection volume should be decreased.
I say marginal in these cases because there is a remote chance that all the sensors in a car can be within spec, but they are all biased in the same direction and these biases don't cancel out as in the majority of cars.
As I believe in the inevitability that one in ten thousand cars could sound like mine, thanks to you, I now believe that one in ten thousand cars would sound like yours.
What we have in common is a computer that trusts too much what some engine sensors might be falsely reporting and when faced with a dilemma, the cpu must make choices that reduce pollution as a priority over a smooth idle which can be seen as a cosmetic issue.
My cpu deals with over-revving by momentarily shutting down the fuel.
Does your cpu deal with an under-revving problem by momentarily increasing the rpms? If so, are there pulses that you hear? How many pulses over how many seconds and how soon after a cold start?
How soon after your purchase did this problem begin? First winter?
What was your experience getting the dealer to improve the situation if it was under warranty?
Do you believe that you will experience difficulty in reselling your car because of the way it sounds?
In any event, let me be clear on this. Forget email. Would you let the plumber diagnose your flooded basement by email? Probably not! So when it comes to your car and the dealer throws up his/her hands, leave the marvels of technology behind and speak to a live human "bean" and call...
1-888-TOYOTA-8
Tell them your problem.
Tell them what's been done to the vehicle.
Ask them what they're system says has been done. (FYI any work you've had done to the car should be in their system).
Tell them how you temporarily resolve it.
Offer to give them that wave file.
Above all...Be polite.
Keep in mind that the person you speak with is just a first line representative and will just take your info and likely escalate it to their Customer Relations issues team...expect a call within a few days with further questions and help. Be patient...they will call. Trust me.
But this is an oddity.
As for the chap with the previous gen 2001 Corolla having odd idle...has that always been like that since day one...or just with wear? What's the mileage? Too many problems. Heck my 95 Civic did that when I hit over 100K - swaped out the plugs and voila - fixed.
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So when it comes to your car and the dealer throws up his/her hands, leave the marvels of technology behind and speak to a live human "bean" and call...
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