4ALC to 4AGE Conversion in AE82

[lurchbyrep]

Hello, one and all. I've never done an engine swap before, and honestly don't know that much about cars, but I'm trying to learn. I recently bought a 1988 Corolla FX (AE82 chassis/4ALC Engine) and I'm planning to replace this weak carbureted SOHC with a rebuilt 4AGELC. As I understand it, this should be a pretty simple swap, as engine swaps go. I understand that the 4AGE bolts directly to the AE82 engine mounts. What I'm wondering is, what all parts am I going to need to replace to get it running and running well? Gearbox? CVs? Exhaust? I want to know EXACTLY what I'm getting myself into here. I wouldn't dream of attempting this job alone with my currently limited experience, but I'm trying to figure out exactly how much everything is going to cost me (this obviously involves figuring out what I need to replace) and how much time it will take, so that I can figure in the approximate cost of labor. I would greatly appreciate any education you could give me.

Thanks,
Lurch

[94_Rolla_Guy]

AE82's acctually came with a 4A-GE i have never seen one but, supposedly they exist

Problems
-Going from a low pressure carbureted fuel delivery system to a high pressure fuel injected setup, one solution would be to use carbs on your 4A-GE

-Will bolt up using parts from the donor car or your car

-Drive shafts shouldn't be an issue as far as i know all "C" series(manual) transmissions use the same output splines.. Worst case scenario you have to use the original outer CV and make a hybrid axle using the updated inner

-wiring will most likely be difficult dont forget about the electric fuel pump

Other things that come to mind are:
-steering hoses
-radiator
-coolant hoses
-fuel lines
-exhaust

Im sure im forgetting stuff, BTW with the budget come up with a reasonable figure and double it!

[EverAE]

ok i have the same car (ae82 fwd sedan), same engine (4alc), dropping in a silvertop 20V. how soon are you guys planning to do your swaps? biggest thing is wiring, get somebody who knows what theyre doing and has experience in something like this and save yourself the headache. as for the driveshafts i can't answer that, but i should be dropping in my silvertop soon, so i'll let you know (but i have heard the original shafts will work). as to what you need to replace to get it running well is up to what condition the parts your starting off with are in. definately refresh the engine with atleast some belts, plugs, cap, filters, and check things like the water pump.

as for the fuel issue, putting carbs on the 4age would just be an expensive solution, just get an efi tank, with the in-tank pump. mines out of an ae92, i've yet to put it in, but i'll let everybody know how it fits up. you just fit your carb'd tank with a electric pump, but there's no baffles so fuel will slosh around on sharp movements and you could starve out your pump/engine.

then your into the little things like rolla_guy said, lines and hoses, etc. exhaust should be done (if it isn't already rotting). the 4alc manifold exits on the rear of the engine while the 4age's exit on the front, so even if you want to leave your stock exhaust on there you'll have to do some work. you'll need a new radiator, 1. because it probably needs replacing anyway. and 2. the coolant inlet and outlet's are in different places, you can use an ae92 4afe rad though. another small thing that's often over looked is the throttle cable. you'll either have to modify you carb'd cable to work on the throttle of a 4age, or find something else that will work. i'm heading to the wreckers soon to raid the corolla's there for a throttle cable that will fit.

[EverAE]

as for the driveshafts, i'm not sure on, that's what i heard through the grapevine, so i can't testify to them fitting or not as of yet. that being said i'm planning on using them and whether they fit or not i'll let you guys know for sure.

as for the different versions of the 20 valves there's a couple things to consider:

1. the silvertop actually came in two generations, i'm not positive on all the differences, but they revised the intake/tb's on the 2nd gen to flow better (1st gen will have 2 throttle levers, 2nd gen will have 1 single lever). i've also heard that the VVT mechanism is activated differently between the two (but i'm not sure if this is true). finally the 2nd gen uses the c56 tranny (better ratio's for quicker acceleration), while the 1st gen uses the c52 (i'm not positive if you could get 1st gen's with a c56 though). the silvertop's have heavier internals for more strength, but rev slightly lower. and they are also airflow meter (AFM) sensored.

2. the blacktop is MAP sensored, so you can remove the plenum, throw on some velocity stacks, trumpets, horns, etc. (whatever you want to call them...) and run open throttles on the stock engine management (where as the silvertop you can't because you have to run an intake pipe with the AFM to inform the engine). the blacktop rev's higher then and free-er then the silvertop due to lightened components, such as the rods, and flywheel. this can become a downside however since lighter internals meant weaker then the previous generation. the blacktop also has a higher compression (i forget the exact number something like 11.0+1 or higher, while the silvertop's have a 10.5:1 compression ratio). the blacktops also have a more aggressive cam profile, and slightly larger throttle bodies). as for tranny's only the higher end blacktop's (i think from trueno or levin BZ-G and BZ-R's) come with the 6 speed (c160) tranny, while the regular 5 spd's will use a c56.

if anything i said is off please correct me, i'm just recalling from memory.

one other important swap factor to consider is this, and it applies directly to us, since we're coming from a non-efi 4alc:

the 20 valve 4age's use an electric speedometer, wehile our ae82's use a mechanical one. while our speedo can work on the 20valves, the feed for an electric speedo must be connected otherwise the ECU will run in a "failsafe" mode, which will limit engine rev's to i believe 7500 rpm, as opposed to the standard 8200 rpm. while the engine will run fine without the speedo connected, you have to remember the 20valves make all their power up top in the rev range. so in a nutshell, you could solve this buy getting an electric speedo, or something like a apex'i rev speed meter, etc.

[EverAE]

you could get a ae101 dash cluster (jdm silvertop) i've seen them in ae82's. only problem is youll have to do some heavy modifications to your dash to make it fit i'd imagine. ive seen people swap in the whole ae101 dash into an ae82 on the net, but those were all into right-hand drive 82's, we don't get that luxury. you could always just buy an aftermarket elec. speedo from autometer or any other guage company and mount it like a tach. i just suggested the revspeedmeter cause that's what im planning on and it lets you monitor more engine details for a pretty cheap price (i was just going to mount mine on the ledge/shelf area on the dash where the clock is).

as far as aftermarket ecu's you can use any universal standalone, but i haven't really seen any plug and play ones (i'm sure theyre out there but your gonna have to start calling up companies oversea's most likely if your set on them). the whole 25-50HP power gain is too optimistic for a 1.6L naturally aspirated engine. you could see that with high lift/duration cams, open throttles, full exhaust and headers, head work, etc. and a good tune. a good piggyback would be enough for a quick street car with mild-medium mods. i know TOM'S makes a plug and play reprogrammed 20V ecu, with an upped rev-limiter to 9000 rpm (for the silvertop)(i don't know much about it though). once my silvertops up and running i'm planning on using a blacktop ecu with a MAP wiring conversion, so i can run open throttles, and either an apex'i or greddy piggyback.

as for suspension, check out Whiteline Australia. i've talked to them before and they were very helpful with good prices. they make basically every possible suspension component for the ae82 (even for us singlecam guys). struts, springs, sways, bushings, struts braces, etc. you can buy staged kits from them as well.

[Criard]

check out www.paradiseracing.com they sell high performance engine parts for the 4age

[ragingSPAM]

well i have an oem corolla fx16 with a 4age stock...i got lucky...from what i've heard you have to add a fuel pump, get a new wiring harness, ECU, and engine and parts...

my ae82 has a strut bar, rear discs, a/c, power steering, cruise control, and a sunroof...hehe...but its not a gts heh

[EverAE]

Originally Posted by LChineze

about the instrument cluster, would the original cluster from an AE86 work? i was looking at the AE86 instrument cluster and it already has the speedometer, tachometer, fuel gauge, oil temperature meter, and thermostat meter. for any remaining gauges, i was thinking of placing them below the radio, cause there's an empty spot. i rarely use that storage slot anyways. within that slot, you can fit three gauges, which would be perfect for oil temperature, water temperature, oil pressure, or fuel pressure gauges. while having a rev speed meter is quite useful, i'm trying to keep the interior as stock as possible. i don't want to stick any gauges out on the dash or in the wide open. no need to show off gauges to others, especially not to the police. would you know how much the TOMs reprogramable ECU would cost? revving up to 9000 rpm would be awesome, haha. besides changing the ECU, camshafts, flywheel, and clutch, what other mods can i do to make more serious horsepower? i know the 4age is meant to be a high rev engine, i want to know if there are ways to bring out more torque. oh EverAE, how much are you planning to spend on your swap? from my estimates, i think its gonna be around $3,000-$4,000. the shop i found is gonna charge $700 for both the engine AND transmission swap. i'm not sure if thats a good deal, but i guess its reasonable. i looked up Whiteline Australia, but i only found parts for the twin cam AE82. do you think i could probably find used parts?

you could try the ae86, im not sure how well it'd fit or anything but it's probably worth a try if you can get one for cheap. i like your idea about guages below the radio, i can't believe i never thought of that, its nice a low key but in good sight to. i got a tach mounted on my a pillar, but it's not one of the huge 5" monster tachs with shift lights and ish, but its still kind of heat though. to be honest i'm not sure how much the TOMs ecu cost, i seem to recall somebody saying they paid between 500-1000 for it, but i don't know if thats with a core exchange or what? i guess you'd have to contact TOMs, or you could try around twincam.

i got my silvertop w/ tranny, ecu, full harness+cut harness, toyota timing belt and thermo in the boxes for 700$ (Canadian), seemed like a good deal and he was a 15 minute drive from my place. probably spent 100$ +/- at the wreckers for random parts and the auto->5spd conversion. 100$ for a gas tank and fuel pump, 100$ for ae92 disk brakes (not needed directly for the swap though, just a good idea), 100$ on stuff like header wrap, k&n cone, belts, etc. i'm doing everything myself, so that saves alot of money. only labour im not doing is the wiring, i dont know enough about the wiring to do this, so im paying somebody with the experience in the swap to do it for me. after that i'm having a new exhaust system bent up, and i still got to run new brake and fuel lines (i'm running ae92 gt-s disk brakes at the back). probably 2000$ +/- for the swap. spend another 1000-2000$ on some rims and tires, little suspension, brakes, etc. the money i'm investing, i'm investing into transferable parts mostly (engine, brakes, rims/tires, etc.), my ae82's body has seen better days, so besides fixing the rust and priming it, thats all its getting in the looks department. in a year or 2, when i got a better job (im going to school for auto tech.) im just going to part out my 82, into a ae92 or ae101 and really build it up.

as for whiteline, i remember seeing they had certain parts listed for twincam, and non-twincam versions. you could email them and ask about it, they were really helpful when i talked to them.

[toyotaspeed90]

wow.... everyone on here so far has large-never-ending paragraphs.... i skipped them all for the most part because they are annoying to find factual information in.

the ae82 (sedan or 2 door hatchback) came with either a 4ac or a 4age (fx16/fx16 gts).

Your best bet would be to find a donor ae82/ae92 fx16/gts.

for Fuel:
you'll need a tank with an efi fuel pump (you could use an external pump and connect a return line.... oddly enough i recently obtained a stock toyota external efi pump....)

for wiring:
you can either go with an aftermarket ecu setup (something like the Megasquirt isn't too difficult and there is a lot of help out there) or you'll have to go stock. if you want to go stock, then it would be advisable to get the compartment harness as well -- considering your car doesn't have similar electronics the wiring may be much more difficult than just splicing a few wires like many other swaps on here.

other options:
someone on here mentioned that you could run carbs on the 4age. This is 100% true. However, the carb adapter, the carbs themselves, and the tuning (if you don't know what your doing) is going to be VERY expensive (much much more than the engine itself). You will also need a starlet distributor to modify to run spark.... the stock 4age dizzy can't be used w/o the ecu.

[EverAE]

Originally Posted by LChineze

so EverAE, how far along are you in your engine swap?

not as far as i'd like to be, i got all the parts right now, im just waiting on my wiring, should be running within a week or so of getting the wiring as long as i haven't forgotten anything.

i looked up the paradise racing website and its a bit strange. under the suspension part, they make parts for toyotas, nissan, etc, and then "universal."

you'd have to call them up i guess, when it comes to 82's your options are pretty limited.

when mounting the new tranny, would it fit the original position slot or will there need some fabrication work to make it fit? ideally, i'd like for it to be a perfect fit cause i like where the shift knob and stick is located.

the tranny should bolt in directly, you might need to do little adjustments but its a bolt in. since the car is front wheel drive, the tranny has no affect on shifter location. the shift mechanism has a frame that bolts to the floor, then cables run through a grommet on the firewall, into the engine bay to the driver side (where the tranny is located).

[punter]

I have'nt read the whole thread so not sure if this has been answered.

For the speedo, just run the mechanical drive that you ae82 used, the 20v ECU isn't affected if there is no speed signal. (I sometimes unplug mine for trackdays) Sure the engine light comes on, but no performance change.

Gearboxes all bolt in except the 6 speed.

[EverAE]

Originally Posted by punter

I have'nt read the whole thread so not sure if this has been answered.

For the speedo, just run the mechanical drive that you ae82 used, the 20v ECU isn't affected if there is no speed signal. (I sometimes unplug mine for trackdays) Sure the engine light comes on, but no performance change.

ive always been told if theres no speed signal, then itll rev cut at 7500 (or 7800 rpm cant remember exactly) instead of 8200.

[punter]

Originally Posted by EverAE

ive always been told if theres no speed signal, then itll rev cut at 7500 (or 7800 rpm cant remember exactly) instead of 8200.

I'm 100% positive that is not the case, I've done it myself in my own car many times.

[toyotaspeed90]

Originally Posted by LChineze

toyotaspeed90, motor swaps, especially in the ae82 sedan are not simple drop-in affairs. we really have to make sure everything works and fits, which is why we are on this forum.

i don't have money to throw around nor long periods of time to leave my car in the shop, so i really need to do my research and ask for any help or opinion. the last thing i want is an unwanted surprise costing me time and money i could have avoided if i did my research. .

they are pretty simple straight forward swaps.... little amount of modification is required.... do your research, get the parts & engine & tranny ALL ready BEFORE the car has it's engine pulled..... that will save you some time


if you can't have downtime on your car, then don't do a swap..... there will ALWAYS be unexpected/surprising costs....

my ae92 swap was supposed to be 2 weekends max and $1,000 to finish..... it took 3 weekends and about $1,400.... (i was one of the first to do a full 4afe to 4age swap in the style that I did... so I learned the hard way).... i've done several mr2's since and been able to keep them way under budget... but there are still things that need attention that will be forgotten.

not sure why you 'called' me out, I didn't say anything in that manner... i was just trying to give advice!

[EverAE]

2 and a half days is way too optimistic. theres always unexpected things, and i dont think that guy fully understood how much wiring (among other things) is involved on top of that.