father-son argument, knowledge needed!

[hollowreaper13]

hey guys,
me and my dad are having an argument on whether an intake will change the sound of the car. I say yes it will sound different. He says no, that it all comes from the exhaust. He and his brother-in-law used to drag race muscle cars in the 80's and he says that from all the intake swaps he has done that an intake will not change the sound.
-i want to get one for my 90 sedan for sound purposes (cuz i know there is little hp gain), and i dont want a fart cannon.

so does it work??

[Piloter]

Normally the intake is silenced due to the box enclosure and careful design, if you go to a short ram design which exposes the element, you WILL hear it. It will sound like a sort of whooshing rushing noise...tell your dad that it's the same sound effect as flipping the air cleaner lid or running with an open element on the carb, he'll probably know what you mean then.

[hollowreaper13]

thanks piloter ill let him know. and i was going to get a short ram intake anyway.


he saw the post and says he used to do the same thing "back in the day" and that he never heard a difference... this may be because he was so used the roar of muscle cars that he couldn't tell... he's beginning to come around because this is, after all, a forum dedicated to people with the same type of car.
thanks again

[toyotaspeed90]

it depends on the car.....

if he builds 350's, 360's, or 351's then I'm sure he's used to having headers + larger exhaust and flowmasters (if not just open headers)..... changing the intake will not have a noticeable difference because the exhaust tone overpowers all other noises.

if you're talking about a 1.6L that has a completely stock exhaust (~1.5", cat, resonator, and muffler) then change the intake, there will be a noticable audible difference.

My MR2's are a good example.... on my wifes car it has a stock exhaust and the stock airbox, but with the "piping" removed that leads to the airbox things like T-VIS are more noticable.... however, in my s/c car, which has a 2.5" DP to a single in/dual out flowmaster delta 40 (dual 2.5") it doesn't matter what's going on, you'll never hear the intake noises... hell, you can only hear the s/c at about 7,000 rpm's

[REN69]

Old cars don't have intakes... they have carbs with a big filter on top, which of course will not change the sound, you're comparing apples to bananas.

[NexusRift]

Explain it more this way;
It's like the difference in sound when you switch out a two barrel carb to a four barrel car on a V8. That whoosh, if you will. It's like a baaaaaWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHH, or a vrrrrrrrRRRROOOOOOOMMM!!!!
I think he'll get the picture right away.

I'm guessing I'm as, if not older than he is {your dad!}, so I know what I'm talking about.

[hollowreaper13]

"can you explain how a short ram intake can create any horsepower (without loosing horse power) next to a very hot power plant under a closed hood" my dad says, because he is still baffled he believes that by adding a short ram intake will not gain any hp at al because of the hot air.

[Rookie_One]

he is right about this thought

if you want horsepower, its a cold air intake you need, not a short ram

[NexusRift]

Originally Posted by hollowreaper13

"can you explain how a short ram intake can create any horsepower (without loosing horse power) next to a very hot power plant under a closed hood" my dad says, because he is still baffled he believes that by adding a short ram intake will not gain any hp at al because of the hot air.

Originally Posted by Rookie_One

he is right about this thought

if you want horsepower, its a cold air intake you need, not a short ram

So, Hollowreaper13. You're bringing us in to the family squabble, are ya'?

Your dad and Rookie_One are correct in regards to short ram design sucking in hot engine bay air as being detrimental to performance. However, there's more to it that just 'cold air!"

Now that being said, the whole idea of an intake kit, {Be it Short Ram=SRI or Cold Air Intake=CAI}, on modern EFI engines is to remove the highly restrictive and noise suppressing air box assembly and replace it with a free breathing intake system. RE: LESS RESTRICTIVE!

Surely, your dad must agree that anything installed on an internal combustion engine that frees up restriction, {Be it intake or exhaust} is beneficial and increases horsepower/performance? Otherwise, why do it at all?????

It's the point of LESS RESTRICTION that is key here. Ask your dad, concerning old school carb equipped V8's, why install an open element Mr. Gasket or K&N kit on top of an Edelbrock manifold, {The Edelbrock manifold's improved port pathways for air delivery, being similar in function, to the intake tube of an intake kit for an efi engine} if it doesn't do a thing for performance?

Now, to the topic of subjecting an SRI or OPEN ELEMENT FILTER to the heat generated within an engine bay;
The unfortunate trade off to less restrictive SI designs, is in fact that they are subject to ingesting hot air. This condition is called HEAT SOAK.

We all know that cooler air is more dense and that it increases power, and it would seem that SRI's suffer because of heat soak, but that isn't always the case.

An SRI is actually less restrictive than a CAI. Basically because an SRI has shorter tube length versus a CAI's longer tubing with multiple bends and turns to contend with.

To put this in perspective, get two straws of the same size, cut one short and suck/blow through both. you will find that it's easier to perform both on the shorter straw. Less restriction, more air, free-er breathing. Believe me. I know what I'm talking about. I'm asthmatic!

Once again I emphasize, that it's all about LESS RESTRICTION, with regards to the argument involved here.

For our EFI engines, the best design would be an SRI with a heat shield, and a scoop or ram air piping to direct cool outside air to the filter.

Here's are a couple of article from TPR's site on an intake kit comparison from a few years back. Good read for you and your old man. Get on your reading glasses, Dad!
http://tprmag.com/issue/1/1_intakes.shtml
http://tprmag.com/issue/1/1_challenge.shtml

Here's a link to the charts for the intake comparisons;
http://www.weapon-r.com/english/?p=22

[Flashmn]

As if the stock intake is restrictive to begin with...

Again the head is the restrictive part. You guys just expect too much from an intake, but thats what the guys at the marketing department of the companies want, with their dyno charts and other statements...

Only thing that actually has some restriction is the plate air filter on the carb 4A-F, but even thats a moot point when all else is stock.

[NexusRift]

Originally Posted by Flashmn

As if the stock intake is restrictive to begin with...

Again the head is the restrictive part. You guys just expect too much from an intake, but thats what the guys at the marketing department of the companies want, with their dyno charts and other statements...

Only thing that actually has some restriction is the plate air filter on the carb 4A-F, but even thats a moot point when all else is stock.

You certainly live up to your title underneath you username, Flashmn.
In addition, you're off topic and didn't contribute one bit to aid Hollowreapers argument with his pop.

Resident asshole?.............Yep!

Be that as it may, headwork is the next stage and a bit more advanced for plain folk who are just getting into the sport/hobby. Not exactly a driveway type of mod, as an intake install is.

And by the way; No one was expecting anything, let alone expecting too much from an intake. Just a nice friendly discussion about intakes. Not heads, not company market department hype, nor the air filter on the carb 4A-F.

Sorry if it seems I'm being harsh. I'm a moderator in two other tuner forums and would've whooped your ass pronto for your,{Flashmn} ill mannered forum etiquette. Or should I say, lack of it!

My apologies to all, and to Hollowreaper13 for cluttering up your thread with this, but i had to do it. I risk much in doing so, but I had to vent.

[Flashmn]

Strong words from someone who's been on this board for less than a month. Calling someone an asshole, just because he has a differing opinion isnt exactly polite either.

[hollowreaper13]

whoa guys... no need to start slashing tires.

I really do appreciate all that everyone has posted (especially nexus), and yes my dad and i have read your post and he has willingly admitted that putting an intake wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing.

-And yes, i am a newbie to the hobby/sport and just loving every new thing about cars and how to build them up.

-it doesn't matter how long he has been on the forum (talking to you flashmn),his knowledge of car moding doesn't only consist of the month that he has been on TN.

-and to you flashmn, i can see your point that you made about all the hype, but i am new to all of this, eventually when i acquire the know-how i will do more drastic modifications.

thanks again guys, i knew you could help me out

[Racing Toys]

NOW CHILDREN... PLAY NICE.,.....lol, I know what you're talking about so I guess I must be older than you & ancient compared to Hollowreaper's dad, lmao.... ain't noise... just grand...

[Flashmn]

Yeah well, I've been working on cars for 11 years now, 4 years since my mechanics schooling, and I've been teaching automotive tech for one semester now at a local school... So yeah, maybe I dont know horseshit about cars.

-it doesn't matter how long he has been on the forum (talking to you flashmn),his knowledge of car moding doesn't only consist of the month that he has been on TN.

Yeah probably not, but his knowledge about me yes. I dont think if you join a community you should be calling people asshole, just because they pop another opinion than your own, especially you just got into the community. Talk to the OG's in this place, they sure as hell dont consider me an asshole (atleast the majority of them anyways). Right ren?