My AE92 Possible Project Thread - swap advice?

[aHarmony]

Hey guys! Been a little while since I posted here.

I'm considering starting a rather large project with my 4-AF Sedan. It's my first car, and I want to have what every person (just about) wants for their first car but usually doesn't end up doing. I finally have the freedom of not needing to use it for work and being able to tear it apart and work on it...

So that brings me to the engine swap. My friends dad lives in the country and has ample amount of resources and space to work on vehicles. I want to find a 4-AG and swap it into my 'rolla.

I've never done an engine swap before, but am a very quick learner and have no problem getting my hands dirty. I shouldn't have much trouble finding a donor car at the junkers. I don't want to go with the EFI 4-AG. I love carbs, and I want to run a dual Weber set up. As far as I know, it will help simplify the wiring too, right?

Anyways, I am just looking for advice on the things I should be on the lookout for when selecting a donor car to haul into the country and rip the engine out of. Apart from the obviously necessary engine and harness, what stuff have some people run into that was unexpectedly necessary down the road that I can take from and be one step ahead (if anything)?

I ran a search for '4ag swap' but didn't really come up with anything.

Currently, my car has whatever 5 speed tranny in it that was stock with the 4-AF series. Will I need anything regarding the transmission to engine connection that's partial to this specific swap? Also regarding selection of the donor engine - what specifics should I know about in terms of the differences between the automatic version and the manual version of the engine? (ie: if my only possible donor car is an auto, is it possible to swap still and keep my 5 speed?) I would think that the only difference would be the clutch cylinders, but I could be wrong...I honestly have no idea.

I'm pretty excited about this if I get the ball rolling. I will be on the lookout for some replacement body panels to start on the bodywork pretty soon.

Much thanks for any information regarding this swap...I know it's a broken record but I searched and didn't find anything specific like I said

[Ghostyman]

So you are trying to take a 4AF and swap just the block from a 4AGE engine but keep the carbed F head? That will still leave you with a 4AF engine, just like you started with.

If you really want to keep the carb, try putting the head on a 7A block for a little more displacement.

[aHarmony]

Oh, no. I mean that I want a 4-AG Carb, not a 4-AGE EFI engine. Unless I am completely mistaken, the 4-AG came carbureted as well, no? I want to swap my 4AF for a 4AG.

Originally Posted by Ghostyman

So you are trying to take a 4AF and swap just the block from a 4AGE engine but keep the carbed F head? That will still leave you with a 4AF engine, just like you started with.

If you really want to keep the carb, try putting the head on a 7A block for a little more displacement.

[4doorGTS]

I hope you thought this out good because as you likely know carbs can be expensive and hard to tune right. But I would love to see a set in a sedan.

Try to find a whole gts for the swap if you can, if not take whatever you can that looks to specific to the gts - wiring harness, power steering lines if you want them, radiator, strut bar if it has one. And 4age's were never offered with a automatic transmission in north america so don't have to worry about that.
From what little I have read on the subject it seems the most important piece to get right for the swap is a distributor as the stock 4age dist. is controlled by the ecu, then a way to manage timing with a msd set-up or the like.

Here are some links to help out as I have never put carbs on a 4a read on

http://forums.club4ag.com/zerothread?id=51359

http://forums.club4ag.com/zerothread?id=50533

http://forums.club4ag.com/zerothread?id=359

http://forums.club4ag.com/zerothread?id=47557

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D4q7-xwkQUU

[Donald]

Forget the carb idea. There is no benefit to it. It seems simpler, but it is not.

If you do the complete 4A-GE swap, your big concerns are fuel pump, and wiring from the ECU to the body. There is no carb balancing or tuning necessary.

For the fuel pump, just swap the complete tank from a fuel injected car, and run wires to the pump.

For the ECU to body wiring, I suggest you contact Dr. tweak at pheonixtuning.com to make you the necessary harness.

Your gearbox will work with the 4A-GE, but because the GE has less bottom end torque, it will run better with a GE gearbox.

My humble opinion would be to go with a 7A-FE, instead of a 4A-GE, unless you can find a '90-91 4A-GE (non TVIS)

I just swapped out my 4A-GE for 7A-FE in my '89 GTS. (the 4A-GE died)
The 7A-FE has just about the same hp as the early (most common) 4A-GE but more low end torque at a lower RPM.

The 4A-GE needs to be reved really high to get to the power band and make the car move.
The 7A-FE doesn't rev as high, but starts making power at a much more useable RPM with a wider power band. I personally prefer the 7A, it is easier to drive around town, and does not feel busy on the expressway like the 4A-GE did. Quiter at 75MPH also.

[aHarmony]

Originally Posted by Donald

Forget the carb idea. There is no benefit to it. It seems simpler, but it is not.

If you do the complete 4A-GE swap, your big concerns are fuel pump, and wiring from the ECU to the body. There is no carb balancing or tuning necessary.

For the fuel pump, just swap the complete tank from a fuel injected car, and run wires to the pump.

For the ECU to body wiring, I suggest you contact Dr. tweak at pheonixtuning.com to make you the necessary harness.

Your gearbox will work with the 4A-GE, but because the GE has less bottom end torque, it will run better with a GE gearbox.

My humble opinion would be to go with a 7A-FE, instead of a 4A-GE, unless you can find a '90-91 4A-GE (non TVIS)

I just swapped out my 4A-GE for 7A-FE in my '89 GTS. (the 4A-GE died)
The 7A-FE has just about the same hp as the early (most common) 4A-GE but more low end torque at a lower RPM.

The 4A-GE needs to be reved really high to get to the power band and make the car move.
The 7A-FE doesn't rev as high, but starts making power at a much more useable RPM with a wider power band. I personally prefer the 7A, it is easier to drive around town, and does not feel busy on the expressway like the 4A-GE did. Quiter at 75MPH also.

Wow guys, thanks for all the infos!

I'm definitely into the idea of more torque. I don't speed as much as I love to blast from intersection to intersection. So, the 7A-FE is as direct of a swap as the 4AG's are? This is going to be a first time for me so I'm looking for the easy mode route so to speak...I thought carbs would be easier somehow, but if there's a guy making harnesses for people I'm more than happy to shell out some dough for one and learn off of what he did for the future.

So I guess I'm on the lookout for a 93-97 'rolla then huh?

I will keep my research going on the fuel delivery and whatnot...I suppose in the long run EFI is probably worth the electrical hassle initially.

I would still love to run dual Webers...if I had the time and money I would do it hands down

[toyotaspeed90]

doing a carb you need a starlet distributor with a 4age head adapter plate, the manifold, and carbs... plus an external pump.... easier to do an EFI setup.

you could do a 7af -- use your F head and carb setup with a 7a block under it.... would increase torque.

[Donald]

Originally Posted by aHarmony

Wow guys, thanks for all the infos!

I'm definitely into the idea of more torque. I don't speed as much as I love to blast from intersection to intersection. So, the 7A-FE is as direct of a swap as the 4AG's are? This is going to be a first time for me so I'm looking for the easy mode route so to speak...I thought carbs would be easier somehow, but if there's a guy making harnesses for people I'm more than happy to shell out some dough for one and learn off of what he did for the future.

So I guess I'm on the lookout for a 93-97 'rolla then huh?

I will keep my research going on the fuel delivery and whatnot...I suppose in the long run EFI is probably worth the electrical hassle initially.

I would still love to run dual Webers...if I had the time and money I would do it hands down

EFI is the way to go for both power and economy.

The 7A-FE will be just as easy, or just as hard a swap as the 4A-GE.
A wire harness from Dr. Tweak costs about $400 I think, not sure, but having done two swaps myself, I think it is definately worth it. I did my own, but I am a glut for punishment.

Dual webbers sound great, but to me, the hassle of keeping them balanced isn't worth the beautiful sound.
I believe that sound can be achieved with the individual throttle bodies from a 20 valve 4A-GE, but you will need to make a special manifold to make it work with the 7A.

I have put only about 130 miles on my 7A, and I am loving it. It is so much smoother and quieter than my 4A-GE was.
Today for the first time I really stepped in it, and it pulls a lot stronger than the 4A-GE up to about 4000 rpm, after that I think they are about the same up to 5800 RPM. The 7A should quit pulling a little above that point, but I didn't go any higher so I didn't find out where.
The GE is just starting to pull at 4500 RPM, and is quite anemic below that. It tops out at about 6800 RPM and redlines at 7200

My engine might be a bit stronger than a stock 7A-FE since I put the 4A-GE pistons in it when I was rebuilding it, to get a slightly higher compression ratio.
After I break it in, I will be dynoing it to see exactly what I have for HP and TQ.

I used the 7A-FE gearbox because it has a lower final drive ratio than the 4A-GE unit, and is better matched to the torque output of this engine. This gives me about a 550 RPM drop at cruise, and a good stoplight launch.
The 4A-GE was turning about 3700 RPM at 70 mph. The 7A is turning about 3150 RPM at the same road speed.
I am expecting to see better gas milage.

[4doorGTS]

Forget what would be easier or cheaper or better for this or that, do your research , read other peoples trials and tribulations come to your own conclusion. If you have the means and your heart says I want carbs, get carbs just be sure you know what your in for.

[92MX83]

If you're going the 7A-FE route, I'd recommend a later one from the 1995-97 Corolla, as I think the torque peak is at 2800 rpm, whereas the earlier ones were at a higher rpm.

I've heard of prople running motorcycle carbs on 4A-GEs, like re-jetted FZR1000 or other liter-bike carbs. That would be awesome.

[Donald]

Originally Posted by 4doorGTS

Forget what would be easier or cheaper or better for this or that, do your research , read other peoples trials and tribulations come to your own conclusion. If you have the means and your heart says I want carbs, get carbs just be sure you know what your in for.

I totally agree. Many people on here tried to talk me out of the 7A-FE, saying it wasn't worth the effort. I am very pleased with the result, and am glad I didn't let myself be dissuaded.

Originally Posted by 92MX83

I've heard of prople running motorcycle carbs on 4A-GEs, like re-jetted FZR1000 or other liter-bike carbs. That would be awesome.

A friend of my Son did a motorcycle throttle body mod on his Civic, and it sounded very good. I am not sure if he ever got it running right. Haven't seen that car for a while now.

[aHarmony]

Man you guys are so awesome, thanks for all the advice!

Of course I wouldn't completely weight my decision on what other people say, but it's great to bounce ideas off people.

I didn't even know Club4AG existed and that there was lots of information about them, so that's a big plus. I really like the idea of the 7-AF being an engine with a lower power curve, but I looooove carbs so much. Also, the 4-AG has a lot more options easily available on the market. Not to say that wouldn't stop me if I was dead set on the 7-AFE, but I want to be able to have a good platform for expansion in the future to further my learning. The 4-AG seems like the best platform to do so upon based on the readily available parts to mess with...not to mention the forum resources.

The swap idea is still up in the air. I have until September to get the car fixed up and do whatever I do to it, so in the meantime I am saving some cash to later decide what to do. I might end up just keeping the 4A-Fail that's in there right now so that I can learn things like timing and whatnot better before I try a swap. Maybe I'll pick up a Weber so that way I have one already when I eventually swap in a 4-AG.

I'll post back with my findings once I'm ready!