Advancing the timing

[NZAE92]

hey

im getting mixed messages about advancing the timing of the engine.
i don't have enough knowledge to do this myself and im not sure if i want to.
but does it actually increase hp. if this does work i might find a place that will do it but what are the limits on advancing and will advancing the timing do much damage to the engine in the future??. My engine is a 1.6L 4AF.
Thanks in advance
Greg

[Flashmn]

Naah. no use doing it. Advancing too much will cause knock.

[Donald]

I believe it can increase horse power, but as Flashmn said you run the risk of knock.
If you do advance your timing, you might need to increase the octane rating of the fuel you use, to reduce the chance of knock.
I would only do it if I was racing.

[Ghostyman]

It's very simple to do, just unbolt the distributor and start rotating it. A timing light will let you see what you are setting it to.

As noted by everyone else, it can lead to knock if you adjust it too far.

Off the top of my head, I believe the default setting for these engines is 10 degrees BTDC (Before Top Dead Center). Adjusting it to 13-14 degrees will probably give you some more low- and mid-RPM power without causing too much knock.

If you aren't familiar with the concepts behind it, take an hour to research it before attempting to do anything.

[NZAE92]

i have already increased my octane rating from the regular 91 to premium 98 with 10% ethanol mixed into the gas (i didn't put the ethanol in the gas supplier does) and i have added a octane booster aswell and that boosts it up 70 points to 105 RON it could be less the mixtures differ but does advancing the timing change the compression i know the dizzy isn't very close the pistons to be able to change the compression. or is it because of the quicker igniting of the mixture that the compression changes??

[Blof-fan]

What made you think that changing the timing changes the compression? timing and compression are 2 different things.

You only change the moment the sparkplug fires when you adjust the distributor.

I think you mean that the sparkplug fires when the compression stroke is not completed yet or something like that?

[Flashmn]

Octane boosters in a bottle are a scam and they dont really raise octane. 5th gear did a test on them even.

You Tube

You Tube

Ignition timing is so worthless to play around with. Even if you change it on idle, you're going to have some really weird numbers on full advance, its not linear, as you have vacuum advance playing during driving increasing the timing significantly and mechanical advance on WOT.

[NZAE92]

i've read about people saying that it increases compression but the other people said that it didn't was just claring it up.
i have seen that vid but what sort of engine did they use it on? did it have high compression pistons.
cars have seen changes with octane boosters but i think it only works good with high comp pistons but i have seen a little difference but it could just me thinking it is faster.
i might keep searching on the timing advancing thing and see what i can do. if it does make a difference then it makes a difference but will have to be very very careful

[canadianae92]

Um advance can effect output slighting unless you are changing the timing drastically because think about it, there is only a select range that it is reasonable to fire a spark off during a 4 strokes operation, you have the compression stroke.... if the piston is headed upwards compressing your air fuel mixture and you fire it off too early guess what you lose some power, too far after piston decent and again you lose power. Basically.

Ignition timing effects DYNAMIC compression, sort of, but a lot of things effect DYNAMIC compression, valve timing rod to stroke ratio rpm which way the wind is blowing etc..

Anyways I'm not going to get into it at the moment but there is dynamic and static compression, when people talk about compression they normally mean static.

Octane booster does effect OCTANE rating but it does not effect POWER OUTPUT DIRECTLY I don't know why they would think it does but, stupid test is stupid. Octane is basically a fuels resistance to pre ignition, basically relates to how much heat it can absorb and pressure it can withstand before igniting, you want air fuel mixture in your motor to be ignited by spark not by compression. You can have to high of an octane and sometimes fuel will go unburnt and ultimately resulting in a loss of power. To gain power with fuel alone you would have to find a fuel with greater energy content, not a higher octane rating.

for example adding methanol/water injection or alchohol based fuels is basically increasing octane, like adding ethanol to fuel, ethanol is an alchohol with a 110 octane rating, add that to some 90 octane and there you go a higher octane mix, in the end higher octane allows you to have a higher compression ration and a leaner fuel mixture which would mean more power if you have the ability to use it

octane boosters use higher octane fuels, add that, you increase your fuels octane rating

so you can actually make more power riding the fine line with a lower octane fuel but if you hear pinging you need to bump it up a notch assuming your timing is set correctly

[NZAE92]

thanks for that info
so if anyone could do it would they?? i still need to learn how to do it and need tools to actually be able to do it lol but if im still in the recommended btdc angle whatever would it really be worth it?? and one more thing has anyone done this and did it change output much

[Blof-fan]

Originally Posted by canadianae92

Um advance can effect output slighting unless you are changing the timing drastically because think about it, there is only a select range that it is reasonable to fire a spark off during a 4 strokes operation, you have the compression stroke.... if the piston is headed upwards compressing your air fuel mixture and you fire it off too early guess what you lose some power, too far after piston decent and again you lose power. Basically.

Ignition timing effects DYNAMIC compression, sort of, but a lot of things effect DYNAMIC compression, valve timing rod to stroke ratio rpm which way the wind is blowing etc..

Anyways I'm not going to get into it at the moment but there is dynamic and static compression, when people talk about compression they normally mean static.

Octane booster does effect OCTANE rating but it does not effect POWER OUTPUT DIRECTLY I don't know why they would think it does but, stupid test is stupid. Octane is basically a fuels resistance to pre ignition, basically relates to how much heat it can absorb and pressure it can withstand before igniting, you want air fuel mixture in your motor to be ignited by spark not by compression. You can have to high of an octane and sometimes fuel will go unburnt and ultimately resulting in a loss of power. To gain power with fuel alone you would have to find a fuel with greater energy content, not a higher octane rating.

for example adding methanol/water injection or alchohol based fuels is basically increasing octane, like adding ethanol to fuel, ethanol is an alchohol with a 110 octane rating, add that to some 90 octane and there you go a higher octane mix, in the end higher octane allows you to have a higher compression ration and a leaner fuel mixture which would mean more power if you have the ability to use it

octane boosters use higher octane fuels, add that, you increase your fuels octane rating

so you can actually make more power riding the fine line with a lower octane fuel but if you hear pinging you need to bump it up a notch assuming your timing is set correctly

Someone that gets it and can put it into words!


On the matter of the timing. Yes, I have done it with my Carina E GTi (3S-GE engine) and it made a drastic difference.

We were dynoing several cars and my Carina didn't perform as it should have. The guy from the dyno thought it was the timing from experience.
So he changed it and did another run. We ended up doing 3 runs before we had the optimal setting. The factory specs state 156bhp for this engine.

The first result was 123,8whp and 146,7Nm with the standard Toyota factory setting (keep in mind that these are WHEEL horsepowers!)
After changing the ignition a bit and the 3 runs to check it, I ended up with 138,4whp and 164,8Nm! That makes a 15hp difference!

BUT! Before everybody goes out changing their timing...

These 3S-GE engines are notorious for having a less than perfect timing and it is a GE (performance) engine.
My 4A-FE corolla on the same Dyno ran like clockwork!
Since the TS is driving a 4A-F, I highly doubt that changing the timing will have any effect.

All I want to say with this is: It can make a difference, if you already have a lousy timing. But if the timing of your engine is set correct, it won't change a thing