Track day advice?

[SuperRA]

Yay, I'm going to participate in NASA's HDPE1 event for the first time. I guess I'll be taking the GTS out there to see what it's made of. I think I'll be in the back of the pack with this car.

Anyhow, for those of you who have tracked your car do you have any suggestions of any kind or wise words?

[Donald]

(1) Change your brake fluid to DOT 5.
I did a Hyperdrive at Virginia International Raceway with my GT-S last year, and had seviere brake fade at the end of the start-finish stretch after the first lap. I just barely made it around the corner (much to the instructors amazement). He commented "This car really likes to turn, doesn't it!"

I think the brakes overheated because the instructor had me braking a lot more than I would have if I was driving by myself, but since he didn't know me or my capabilities, I guess he was playing safe.
The next couple laps he let me drive my way, and they cooled off and came back some, but not to maximum.

Anyway, I have been advised that I should make that change if I plan to track the car again.
Make sure you flush the system out properly with alcohol before you put in the DOT 5 fluid.

(2) Do an oil change before you go, and when you get to the track, add an extra half-a-quart or so, to make sure you don't have oil starvation if you have any fast sweeper curves.

(3) Inflate your tires about 8-10 pounds above what you usually run on the street.

(4) Have your alignment checked.

[canadianae92]

changing fluid wont prevent fade, you might want to look into slotted rotors and different brake pads if its that bad

[Donald]

It is my understanding that brake fade is mostly the result of the fluid boiling in the calipers.
That creates gas pockets which compress when you press the pedal.
DOT 5 boils at a higher temperature than DOT 3, so it resists fade better.

A gas pocket can develop between the pad and the rotor also, so slotted or drilled rotors will help with that. I really think though that the fluid will boil long before the rotors and pads get hot enough to develop a gas pocket there.
Replacing the fluid is also probably a cheaper and quicker remedy than replacing the rotors.

Don't hold me to this. I have only ever tracked my car once, am still running DOT 3, and am by no means an expert on the subject.

[SuperRA]

Cool, thanks for the advice. Brake fade is one thing i'm worried about but I think I'll be slow anyhow.

I probably don't want to goto DOT5, I've only heard bad stuff about it. I do have a higher boiling point DOT4 in there right now so it should be ok.

The tire pressure thing, I would think you would need to run a lower pressure than on the street because the tires will get hotter on the track no? Hotter tires mean pressure will go up so you should start with a lower cold pressure to get the same operating pressure. Well, my instructor said it was one of those things I'd have to experiment with.

There is another issue I'll just have to deal or live with. Sitting in the car normally in a comfortable position, my head just barely doesn't touch the headliner. When I put on a helmet, I'll have to scrunch down or lean to the side. If I scoot the seat forward and lean the seat back, my legs are too bent. Anyone else have this problem?

[canadianae92]

Yea i was tired when typing that but fluid boiling can cause fade youre right about that, i also wouldn't use dot 3 for extended track use, was your fluid fresh or old? As the fluid ages itll collect more and more water and the boiling point will be a lot less. Dot 5 is pretty good for track because it wont absorb water but it will give you a spongy pedal feeling from what i heard. Dot 5.1 is another alternative with an even higher boiling point than 5 but it will absorb water over time. Using dot 3 it can boil as low as 100C. If your fluid was boiling it would feel more like a spongy pedal rather than just a loss in braking ability.

For pads, maybe your pad type is generating a bit much gas? I think pads are a really important factor in preventing brake fade and transferring heat. Depending on the material used for the friction material it can generate a lot of gas as your brakes heat up or not much gas.

The best way to fix our cars brake fade in an ideal world would to use a lot larger rotors and calipers but that isn't really realistic so slotted rotors and good pads might go a long way if brake fluid doesn't do it.

Definitely use new brake fluid for a track day with its dot 3 or 5.1

I don't really know the specifics on what temperature you'll get gas fade at vs boiling point of fluid, as you move up to the higher boiling point fluid though the most you can get is 60c above what dot 3 offers. I do know that rotors heat up fast though and I'd sooner blame the rotors/pads than the fluid unless it is old fluid.

[canadianae92]

Originally Posted by SuperRA

Cool, thanks for the advice. Brake fade is one thing i'm worried about but I think I'll be slow anyhow.

I probably don't want to goto DOT5, I've only heard bad stuff about it. I do have a higher boiling point DOT4 in there right now so it should be ok.

The tire pressure thing, I would think you would need to run a lower pressure than on the street because the tires will get hotter on the track no? Hotter tires mean pressure will go up so you should start with a lower cold pressure to get the same operating pressure. Well, my instructor said it was one of those things I'd have to experiment with.

There is another issue I'll just have to deal or live with. Sitting in the car normally in a comfortable position, my head just barely doesn't touch the headliner. When I put on a helmet, I'll have to scrunch down or lean to the side. If I scoot the seat forward and lean the seat back, my legs are too bent. Anyone else have this problem?

I'm cautious about dot 5 because its a weird silicone fluid, it doesn't absorb water but it will absorb air.

Too low of tire pressure can heat a tire up a lot and in some extreme cases enough to cause a blowout so you need to find a happy medium.

I have head room issues, especially with a helmet I'm 6'5". My car has a sunroof so its even lower. I have to open the sunroof and lean my head to the side or lean the seat back a lot.

Removing my dash fixed my leg room problem, I plan on doing something about my seating position one day.

[eage8]

fluid and brake pads are huge (rotors, not so much). the fluid can be a nice DOT 4, that's fine, you don't have to go crazy. using a high performance brake fluid like ATE Superblue (DOT 4) is fine. If you're using stock OEM type brake pads, you're going to have issues. I'd recommend replacing them with some Hawk HPSs (good for street and track) for your first track day. later on you might want to get a set of track only brake pads. The rotors are fine, everyone I know who tracks there car regularly doesn't use drilled or slotted rotors. they just crack faster and don't have that much benefit. they're not worth it.

And yes, changing your fluid is a good idea, it's probably decently old and the boiling point probably isn't as high as it should be.

tire pressure depends on how good your tires are. if you're running large sidewalls or something you need lots of pressure in them to prevent rolling over onto the sidewalls.

I run out of headroom in my RX-7 too, it sucks, I just lean back a little bit more than usual and bend my head towards the sunroof

[Donald]

I have on Hawk pads with larger (AE101) rotors and calipers on the front.

And yes, moisture absorbtion will cause older fluid to boil earlier, at the very least, change your fluid out (flush the calipers and wheel cylinders) for some fresh stuff.

I have issues with seating position also, but it is not height, it's the head rest.
I have to recline the seat more than I want to, and pull it up a notch closer to get my head at a comfortable angle, and still reach the steering wheel properly.

[canadianae92]

Properly made drilled or slotted rotors shouldn't crack and drilled only really helps with wet stopping so you do not need drilled unless you are racing in the rain all the time but slotted is good for preventing gas fade. Pads sometime come with a center slot that makes slotted rotors use disputable.

Larger rotors and calipers are the best thing you can do for brake cooling, larger area helps dissipate heat faster, if they cant displace the heat that's when you have to worry about your fluid boiling.

Idk how you got brake fade donald! I haven't seen it yet in autox or high speed stuff and this is with some old fluid. Stock gt-s brakes & dot 4 forget pads.

[Donald]

Originally Posted by canadianae92

Properly made drilled or slotted rotors shouldn't crack and drilled only really helps with wet stopping so you do not need drilled unless you are racing in the rain all the time but slotted is good for preventing gas fade. Pads sometime come with a center slot that makes slotted rotors use disputable.

Larger rotors and calipers are the best thing you can do for brake cooling, larger area helps dissipate heat faster, if they cant displace the heat that's when you have to worry about your fluid boiling.

Idk how you got brake fade donald! I haven't seen it yet in autox or high speed stuff and this is with some old fluid. Stock gt-s brakes & dot 4 forget pads.

Like I said, the instructor had me braking a lot more than I would have normally. This was the familiarization lap, to learn the lines and braking points on the track. On the next few laps when he let me do my own thing, they came back, but not quite to 100%.
Then again, I had never driven this car that fast before, so it could also have been just my perception that I wasn't getting 100%. Things feel different at high speeds.

That first corner was definitely fade though. I thought for a moment that I was going to have to call AAA to pull my car from under some bushes and get it home.
When we came out on the other side of the corner, I thought to myself "I love this car!!!"

That is the only instance that ever gave me doubts about my brakes.

[SuperRA]

Woohoo, what fun. Well, the GTS held up great. I might just be ignorant on the subject, but the brakes worked fine every time. I don't know if I was just paying too much attention to everything else to notice, but I couldn't notice any significant fade. I don't even know what kind of pads are in there, but they were DOT rated EE which isn't too high on the temp. There were some used pads I took off of an extra knuckle assemblies i bought.

I was probably the car with the least amount of power, luckily this beginning class you aren't racing, you go as fast as you feel comfortable.

What was neat was I got a couple good comments on the car. It was almost like it has a "classic" persona to it.

Man, my back is all bent up tho, I think once I get the sedan going, I'm gonna use that instead. It has a bit more headroom.

[Donald]

It is great fun, isn't it!!??
I had a blast when I did my Hyperdrive. Like you, I had people commenting on my car saying how great it was to see one on the track, and how rare the Coupes were in this area.

This was me being chased by a Benz and a BMW


They would run me down on the straights, but I would pull away in the esses.


They eventually passed me, but couldn't pull away. Didn't get any photos of that
Only photos of me in front

[SuperRA]

It was fun! I didn't get any good photos, all my friends were on the track with me. The track photographer got some really good photos, but I couldn't convince myself to pay $40 for one picture.

So do we really turn better than cars like those in your picture? Or were they just less experienced?

[Donald]

Originally Posted by SuperRA

It was fun! I didn't get any good photos, all my friends were on the track with me. The track photographer got some really good photos, but I couldn't convince myself to pay $40 for one picture.

I was lucky that the wife of a guy I know was taking photos.
The guy is actually a NASA instructor, and he is the one who talked me into doing it.

Originally Posted by SuperRA

So do we really turn better than cars like those in your picture? Or were they just less experienced?

Oh, definitely purely difference in experience. The Corolla could never keep up with those cars with drivers of equal capabilities, even though I had on K-Sport coilovers and Whiteline front and rear sway bars.
I think there were about 12 or 15 other cars on the track at the time (too fast to be in the photos). I think we three were the slowest of the bunch. A Porsche Cayman passed me twice and we only did about 4 or 5 laps. I was so excited I didn't even count the laps, but we were on the track for a little over a half an hour.