Decent Blacktop Swap Quote???

[Public Disturbance]

So I found a local shop that has done some sweet swaps, the shop is very well known in the area for the good quality work it produces. Now I was wondering the quoted 3500-4k for a Blacktop 20v in my 1990 Corolla sedan now this price includes ALL parts AND converting the car from auto to 5spd is this a decent price for the swap. Down the road I am wanting to do a turbo setup and they said I could run 6-7psi on the stock motor without running into problems and make this a very fun little street car. What do you guys think?

[rdyzz]

hymmm, blacktop usually run anywhere from a bare motor $700-800 to full engines with complete to incomplete harness $1,000-1,700. full front clips usually cost somewhere in the $1800-2,500. aside from that if you don't know how to do wiring yourself i remember dr. tweak charges $600-700, depending on how complete the bt harness is it might cost more. a new clutch, timing belt, water pump will run you in the ballpark of $500-700. so doing the swap if you know how to make use of the parts can be as cheap as $1,200 to $1,800 all the way to $3,800.

im sure the shop you talked to is capable of doing the wiring. just make sure they have done this before or you might end up with an unfinished project that sits in the shop for 6 months before they tell you they can't do it. if the shop does do it i'm betting that price is for a bare engine with them doing the wiring. it also does not include a new clutch, timing belts, water pumps or any wear and tear item. it will prob cost the shop $1,200-1,500.

when i did my old blacktop swap it cost me a total of $3,300 doing it myself. this was a good condition blacktop from a front clip, the car actually ran up till the point they cut it in half. all i changed was the waterpump and timing belt. i added a new clutch and flywheel and had dr. tweak make me a harness.

my buddy has ordered a blacktop with the company giving him 2 extra engines and just deciding to quit on him due to those engines having massive sludge build up. all the way to having internal parts worn down. this is the danger of buying a non-running out of the car engine.

if $3,500 to $4,00 will turn your car into a manual and get you a blacktop with all parts included i say do it.

remember it might cost almost the same or cheaper if you do it yourself, but as professional as any shop is this is still not their car. so they might not put the type of care and attention as you might if you were doing it yourself. although there is warranty to cope with that..... i hope. just my 2 cents

[Public Disturbance]

Yeah I understand what your saying, and I prolly could do the swap myself and save some money but I just dont have the time working between working full time, going to collage, and running a clothing line I have NO extra time so it would be sitting for a lot longer then 6 months if I attempted it lol, but as far as the capabilitys of the swap they have done some crazy stuff, 98 Ford Escort ZX2 with a RWD conversion and a 351W, 2JZGTTE into a 07 Mustang, K24 into a 86 honda accord hatch. They have mechanic there that has a 7AGTE in a AE86 so they have a guy that knows the motor and they said I could buy a 12 month/12,000 mile warranty for another $750 bucks and I figured on throwing in a new clutch and stuff like timing belt all that kinda stuff before the motor got put in.

[rdyzz]

that sounds good. if you don't have the time to do it i would trust them then. the only reason i would do it myself like i said isn't so much the savings, but the attention and care that i know its my car. not only this, but since you did it yourself you know everything about the changes.

the price they qouted you is very reasonable.

[REN69]

Before you go spending $4k on this worthless swap, ask around... I'm sure they've done swaps before, but how many 20V swaps have they done? speak to people who have gotten swaps done there before, specially toyota swaps and see what problems they've had with theirs...

I know a couple of guys who do this on their spare time, and let me tell you... with $4000 they would probably build a whole car.

[rdyzz]

the one thing i will say i notice on the 20v models that did bug me was hesitation. it does go away or do it less with the o2 unplugged. i don't doubt that there are people who can build their whole cars for $4,000. i also totally agree that he should find out more about this shop with their toyota customers.

i dont feel that the bt is so useless though, if you live in states that done care what you swap in your car, i actually like the 20v bt more then the 16v. it has so many more positives, itb, better tourqe curve, 8,400rpm instead of 7,900, better response with good condition ones making 130whp or so while still getting 30mpg. the only downside to these engines is parts. i have seen to many people post dynos about 16v's making 120whp after spending close to 2k on their engines.

however both these engines are slow in comparison to my 3sgte in my old mr2.

[Public Disturbance]

Ok this is a copy of the email the owner of the shop gave me...


Ray,
In regards to the 20v Blacktop swap, I have done some more research and from one person to another I would say you should go another route. Many people have had many problems with this motor and from what I have seen of it in all actuallity isn't much better then the 4afe that your corrolla has in it currently. While we can and will still do the swap for you he is what I would suggest as a build for your corrolla


4AFE(83mm bore with custom pistons 9.5:1,4AGZE rods and crank)
T3/T4 Turbo Kit(FMI, 2.75" Intercooler piping, boost switch 12-14psi low with a 26-28psi high)
We can get Bill Gude at Gude Performance to do a head package(PnP, Cams and Bored TB)
AEM Full Standalone EMS(This would be the universal model that is basically a honda unit but can be tuned to any motor, this is the same one we have on our supra powered mustang)

Now this is just some of the major pieces of the build we would still need to sit down and talk over all the little parts to it also but there is no doubt that we couldn't get 375-425 out of this motor at the crank on a E85 tune, which will produce a around a low-mid 12 second car with a decent driver and traction.

Thank you for your interest
Neal


So now my question is to you guys what do you think of the route they are suggesting and I would still do a 5spd swap.

[rdyzz]

what are your goals actually. you can make any engine fast as most people know. what kinda engine do you want to have, laggy but when jesus kicks in its like a 300lb woman sitting on you. a responsive engine with good throttle response which will allow you to modulate the trottle. or lastly a good tourqey engine that will drive well in any situation, street and autocross.

the blacktop is probabally the most responsive of all the 4age engines. a dam good na engine (which can also be boosted). the 4agze which is a good tourqey engine thanks to the supercharger, although i don't think there is any sc12 powered gze's capable of running 12's or even 13's for that matter. then theres the option they qouted you, to turbo your 4afe and just make power out of it. when boost is concerned i guess it doesnt matter if its a fe engine or ge engine.

also remember that in order to handel the 300+whp those guys qouted you you might need a E series tranny and not a C series. i have seen E series trannys for sale for as little as $150. at this point you might wanna ask yourself if you should just get a gze frontclip.

[Zembonez]

Sure seems like a lot to spend... and end up with a 90 Corolla.

[Public Disturbance]

Originally Posted by Zembonez

Sure seems like a lot to spend... and end up with a 90 Corolla.

If I didnt already know this and was ok with it do you think I would have bought a 90 Corolla, I really hate when people dog on someone elses taste if you dont like what I'm doing the only advice I give you is dont do it.



Really I want a fun street car, may take it to a autocross here and there but its not going to a race only car I want it to have "luxurys" ac ps stereo that kinda stuff. Nothing too crazy when it comes to power and nothing that say something breaksdown is going to be a pain to get parts for I kinda like the idea of building the 4AFE because for 4k I could have a modified 4AFE to a extent compared to a Blacktop swap and then I would be a stock motor and still have to spend the money for a turbo, standalone, and other parts.

[Zembonez]

Originally Posted by Public Disturbance

If I didnt already know this and was ok with it do you think I would have bought a 90 Corolla, I really hate when people dog on someone elses taste if you dont like what I'm doing the only advice I give you is dont do it.

Really I want a fun street car, may take it to a autocross here and there but its not going to a race only car I want it to have "luxurys" ac ps stereo that kinda stuff. Nothing too crazy when it comes to power and nothing that say something breaksdown is going to be a pain to get parts for I kinda like the idea of building the 4AFE because for 4k I could have a modified 4AFE to a extent compared to a Blacktop swap and then I would be a stock motor and still have to spend the money for a turbo, standalone, and other parts.

I wasn't dogging you. I was simply implying that someone spends that kind of cash on a 1990 Corolla, they better be dedicated to it and plan on keeping it and using it up. Really no more than that. It was not a "Corolla is a piece of shit" post.

I should have been more specific. I kinda owe you one there.

[rdyzz]

there are a good amount of guys here who have turbo'ed their 4afe. actually i think there is more turbo 4afe on this site then there are turbo 4age's. anywas do a search up on pnyk33 i think he did a write up on turboing a 4afe using a 4agze block/tranny DIY - How to forged and build a turbo 4a/7a motor . theres some delima the steps he took vs a 4agze, but thats another deal. if you haven't already, you should know the main difference in the gze and afe block is the gze already has pretty tough rods, i forget if it was semi forged piston or somthing, but i do know it's coated with a speacial heat coating. the gze also has oil squirters to help cool the pistons. i don't think the 4afe block has any of those. but the amount of 4afe's that are turbo'ed here seem to still be running so let that speak for the 4afe itself.

like i said at this point if your using an E series tranny and GZE block it might just be easyier to do a 4agze. they can be found in all supercharged aw11 in the US. or refresh your 4afe and turbo a stock one. i have seen many stock turbo 4afe making 170-190whp or so. and if it blows you can get another 4afe for $500.

well whatever you choose good luck with it man, and post up some pics when you get it running or done.

[ae92raybrig]

To quote that letter from that shop:

"Many people have had many problems with this motor"

This is not true.

Thats just their way of saying they dont have any experience with the Blacktop, with its electronics/schematics.

Its a good, reliable engine that needs an equally good mechanic that knows its intricacies and is in possession of its engine diagrams/journals which, of course are from Japan only. Chiltons wont have that info, since this engine is JDM-only.

The compression ratio is 11:1 so turbocharging is strongly not recommended.

Also, there is a 6 speed version of this with LSD.

[Createdtoburn]

I'm surprised nobody commented on the "boost switch 12-14psi low with a 26-28psi high)". I dont know about you, but 26-28psi on this engine just seems a bit high and dangerous haha. And the quoted 375-425 hp rating also seems pretty high numbers. And if it did cary that much power, I'd say good luck controlling your car with that much torque behind a front wheel drive car. I'd imagine you needing a good suspension upgrade as well and some fat tires in the front to keep from burning out everywhere haha. Good luck, put up pictures whatever you do.