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6th Generation (1988-1992) Specific discussion of the AE92

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Old 02-17-2012, 06:51 PM   #1 (permalink)
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AE92 From FE to GE: what 'little things' could I have missed?

OK, so I'm really on a roll gathering up my parts for my GE build. Unfortunately I haven't been able to find, say, all the water lines from one person, so I've had to go piecemeal.

Anyways I just pulled the fuel pressure regulator (and some stuff attached to it... will post a pic later) from a Geo Prizm GSi... when I got home, I was looking at my FE and realized that the fuel line feeds into the opposite end of the fuel rail. D'oh! So it looks like I need to source out that line, probably by going back to that junkyard (which is over an hour one way).

As I was there moving stuff out of the way, I realized that the Prizm had cruise control, but it appeared that both throttle cables swung over the engine and then to the throttle body. Unlike the FE, which simply swings up from the firewall and onto the TB. So... do I need to grab that throttle cable? Am I going to have a nightmare removing it? I have a smallport head & intake manifold on the way. I don't know if you can use the FE cable.

Also wondering if anyone knows if I can order the block end of that oil drain which comes out the intake side of the head? I hate to cannibalize a good motor (Prizm was hit badly on the side, I presume the engine is decent), but I need my parts... finding a smallport out here is like finding a gold mine.

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Old 02-20-2012, 06:55 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Wow! Are you planning to change the pistons too? If not, you will probably be running at a lower compression, thereby defeating the intent of the build.
Why didn't you just get the complete Prizim engine?
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Old 02-21-2012, 04:24 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Basic rundown of my build:

FE block (has oil pan notch to clear transfer case)
GZE smallport head
GE JDM smallport intake
GE bluetop crank
Aftermarket cams, pistons, maybe rods (40/20)
FE accessories (custom alternator & PS top brackets)
Chipped Honda ECU, Honda distributor & sensors

Was thinking of going with 11:1 pistons. I'm wondering about the "small" things that I don't seem to see any info about when reading up on GE swaps. I don't know if I can use my FE throttle cable with the GE smallport TB; or even something crazy like swap my FE TB onto the GE intake. (To further that crazy thought, I also have an Acura GSR TB at my disposal -- at least it has the MAP sensor built into it that I'll need.)

Then there's the FE fuel rail, which appears to be backwards compared to the GE one (location of FPR and fuel line). I definitely need to use a GE fuel rail, but what about that fuel line?

I'd love to just do a direct swap, but because of the transfer case of the AE95, I can't just use any FWD setup. It's mostly the block that's the issue. I don't want oil leaks from cutting it down as others have done.
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Old 02-21-2012, 07:46 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Basically you will need everything other than the block from the 4age.

Head, IN and EX manifold, fuel rail, injectors, regulator, water pump with water line, water pump pulley, 4age crank timing gear, crank pulley, timing belt tensioner. There may be some other things that I am not remembering.

As for the oil drain from the head , you can choose to block it off or have someone weld a bung on the back of the oil pan and run a hose from the head drain to the pan similar to that of a turbo.

What pistons do you intend to use to get the 11:1 c/r ? With 4afe pistons the head will need to be heavily cut to get that kinda compression. You need some 4ag high comp pistons at the very least.
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Old 02-21-2012, 05:31 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Thanks... yeah, I'll definitely be going with GE pistons. Only FE things I'm using are the block / oil pan / main caps (with ARP fasteners), harmonic balancer, and accessories (alt/PS/AC). I'll have to check to see if the FE power steering pulley will fit the GE water pump (and line up with the PS pump). Otherwise I'm sure I can modify an FE water pump to use with the GE timing cover.

Going with GE internals... crank, rods, pistons, with ARP fasteners. Everything I've read points to the GE internals fitting into an FE block with no problems. (The '97 FE block I have is a 7 rib, for what it's worth.) I just need to get the FE block that's sitting on my garage floor onto the engine stand to find out for myself. I need to do a mock-up & test-fit for everything before I get too much further into this.

It's a bit of a crazy build, but the idea is to keep my FE accessories where they are. Plus the transfer case keeps me using an FE block (or a 20v block, but I only paid $50 for the FE). The most I will have to do is have custom top brackets made for the FE alt & FE PS, and change the length of the AC line that's behind the radiator (it will interfere with a GE distributor). Unless I can go distributorless with the Honda ECU...
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Old 02-21-2012, 07:00 PM   #6 (permalink)
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I think I have a useable GE throttle cable if you need it. I have a bunch of GE accessories in my storage shed. Not sure what all, but if you need anything let me know, I'll look see if I have it.
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Old 02-21-2012, 08:38 PM   #7 (permalink)
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OK cool, thanks! From what I can tell by the OEM part numbers, it doesn't matter if the cable is for smallport or bigport.

http://www.toyodiy.com/parts/p_U_198...MVFA_7801.html

http://www.toyodiy.com/parts/p_U_199...MVFA_7801.html

Then there's that fuel line, which from what I can tell, the FE line is too short to reach the opposite end of the GE fuel rail. I've seen so few of the GE powered Corollas in person...
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Old 02-24-2012, 07:36 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Correction to my earlier post. You won't need the 4age crank pulley , just the crank timing gear. If you intend to use your 4af accessories like A/C and P/S and alternator, you will have to keep your 4af water pump but you will have to use the 4ag water line.

I am basing my info on the experiments we did when we were supercharging a 5afe some years ago so don't take what I said as gospel. It was a few years ago. We used the sc12 with supercharger mounts and 4agze brackets and accessories , 4agze crank pulley and 4age water pump. Almost the opposite of what you are doing. IIRC the 4age accessories/ crank pulley are spaced further than the 4afe so can't exactly mix and match accessories and brackets.

There is no way to do distributorless set up as far as I know with the Honda ecu . Was looking into doing it on my 4agte sometime ago and was looking to do a trigger wheel or distributorless set up but there was nothing like that in existance . You may want into mounting the distributor on the exhaust cam gear or have a machinist try to fab up something to use the Honda distributor in the stock location.
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Old 02-24-2012, 12:46 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Edit: well I was certainly out of it when I typed this up earlier today (worked overtime, I'm beat!). I'm editing out the comments I made about the water pump gears (was thinking of Honda engines). However, I'm still wondering about the FE pulley fitting onto the GE pump and working with the alt & PS belts. I can tell using the bluetop pump & pulley in my box o' parts that the FE pulley doesn't line up with the four bolt holes in the GE pump. But, that is a RWD GE pump. I have a GZE (FWD I believe) water pump & mounting bracket on the way. But I don't know if that water pump is the same as a FWD GE water pump.


Yeah, I've managed to get all of the water lines. I think. This is what I hate about having to buy pieces here & there. Also having an oddball drivetrain screws things up. I did manage to get the thermostat housing from a Geo Prizm GSi (automatic), but not sure if that will even fit on top of my E57F5. I might need a FWD GZE (JDM... augh) thermostat housing, since that's also an E series tranny (...right?). I'm going to check this soon, pull the airbox etc out of the way on my wagon and see if the Prizm housing will fit in place. Or it's custom bracket time

Edit: the smallport (Prizm automatic) remote thermostat housing definitely does not fit onto my E57F5. Dammit!


From what little I've been able to read about Honda ECUs and distributorless... you're right, there isn't much of anything, outside of going with an AEM EMS. I've read about both things that you mentioned with keeping a Honda dizzy. I'm most likely going with the latter, in fact, I've already picked up a second GE dizzy (used) for this. But I can tell that FE AC line is in the way. I just hope I can have that line modified / shortened without affecting the AC system.

I've thought about pulling off my FE head, and test fitting a GE head in place to make sure the Honda dizzy will fit into place with a GE dizzy as an adapter. It'll be awfully close to the radiator.

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Old 02-25-2012, 05:37 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Went back today, pulled the smallport throttle cable and fuel line, so I'm good for now. But thanks for the offer / help, Donald!

I also grabbed all of the cruise control stuff, or at least I tried to. I'm going back again to get a few more parts. I'm hoping some of this will be plug & play with my All-Trac. There are a lot of unused connectors here & there under the paneling.

I also grabbed the bigport FWD thermo housing, since it looked a little different than the Prizm smallport housing. It's different, but not by much! The main body of the housing is almost identical to the smallport housing, with some sensors added or missing (depending on which you're looking at). The water neck for the radiator hose seems to be the only thing really different. So now I just need to track down a GTZ FWD (GZE) thermo housing (good luck to me, lol) -- if it does indeed have an E series tranny -- or hope that the GZE MR2 housing will sit properly on my tranny. I know the GZE powered MR2s have E series trannies...

Some pics from the 'yard:

Before removal of dash stuff:


After I was done gathering cruise control bits:


I spent HOURS carefully pulling apart wire loom, inside and in the engine bay. Holy cow. I don't ever want to have to do that again... but I know I'll have to someday I still ended up doing what I didn't want to do, which was clipping wires since there were points at which I just couldn't undo any more loom, without pulling fenders and that sort of thing. And by those points I was tired anyway...
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Old 02-26-2012, 07:22 AM   #11 (permalink)
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That looks like it was a lot of work. Wish I lived closer I would be hitting that car for parts myself.
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Old 02-26-2012, 07:24 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Don't sweat getting the thermostat housing if its a problem. The fwd housing from the gts will work just fine . It just won't bolt down but that's not a problem, the radiator hose will hold it in place.

The rwd and fwd 4age water pump pulleys share the same bolt pattern.

I have been thinking about it . The easiest and probably cheapest route is to keep the the stock 4afe water pump and instead of the water pipe going to the head like it would in a 4afe you just run a piece of hose at the back of the engine to the thermostat housing like it would on a 4age 16v. $5 worth of hose from a parts store. You get to keep all your 4afe accessories the only difference would just be hose from the waterpump going to the t-stat.

I don't think you will have a problem with the distributor hitting the radiator.
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Old 02-26-2012, 09:04 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 90 GP View Post
That looks like it was a lot of work. Wish I lived closer I would be hitting that car for parts myself.
Anything small-ish that you might need? I'm probably going back again to get more stuff. I should mention that the interior wasn't in great shape. The owner smoked a lot in that car (ashtray was full of cig butts). I'm hesitant to pull too much from the motor, since I've considered pulling it for myself, also didn't want to leave the internals exposed to the elements in case someone else comes along and wants the mostly-complete motor. Smallports are very hard to come by in my area for some reason. This is the first I've seen in like 6 months of searching...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evo_lucian View Post
Don't sweat getting the thermostat housing if its a problem. The fwd housing from the gts will work just fine . It just won't bolt down but that's not a problem, the radiator hose will hold it in place.

The rwd and fwd 4age water pump pulleys share the same bolt pattern.

I have been thinking about it . The easiest and probably cheapest route is to keep the the stock 4afe water pump and instead of the water pipe going to the head like it would in a 4afe you just run a piece of hose at the back of the engine to the thermostat housing like it would on a 4age 16v. $5 worth of hose from a parts store. You get to keep all your 4afe accessories the only difference would just be hose from the waterpump going to the t-stat.

I don't think you will have a problem with the distributor hitting the radiator.
Thanks... well that sucks about the pulleys. I'll just have to use the FE pump & cut away at where the timing cover meets it. I was doing a little bit of searching around last night and found a topic on another forum about a guy who was installing a FWD GZE into his RWD Corolla. He pretty much just had the thermo housing hanging on the intake side of the engine (at least it didn't appear to be bolted down). He had cut down the coolant pipes back there and connected them to the housing with short pieces of hose. I would just prefer to have the housing bolted down at least with one bolt hole, which I might be able to do. It'll just cover up the shifter cables if I do that.

Since I'm not going to be using the stock airbox, I'll have more room there for the housing in case I decide to mount it with both holes. It will be above the tranny higher than normally if I have some custom mounting blocks installed... there's a sensor on my tranny right near/under where the thermo housing would sit normally.
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Old 02-26-2012, 12:14 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RogueMoog View Post
Anything small-ish that you might need? I'm probably going back again to get more stuff. I should mention that the interior wasn't in great shape. The owner smoked a lot in that car (ashtray was full of cig butts). I'm hesitant to pull too much from the motor, since I've considered pulling it for myself, also didn't want to leave the internals exposed to the elements in case someone else comes along and wants the mostly-complete motor. Smallports are very hard to come by in my area for some reason. This is the first I've seen in like 6 months of searching...



Thanks... well that sucks about the pulleys. I'll just have to use the FE pump & cut away at where the timing cover meets it. I was doing a little bit of searching around last night and found a topic on another forum about a guy who was installing a FWD GZE into his RWD Corolla. He pretty much just had the thermo housing hanging on the intake side of the engine (at least it didn't appear to be bolted down). He had cut down the coolant pipes back there and connected them to the housing with short pieces of hose. I would just prefer to have the housing bolted down at least with one bolt hole, which I might be able to do. It'll just cover up the shifter cables if I do that.

Since I'm not going to be using the stock airbox, I'll have more room there for the housing in case I decide to mount it with both holes. It will be above the tranny higher than normally if I have some custom mounting blocks installed... there's a sensor on my tranny right near/under where the thermo housing would sit normally.


The parts I would be grabbing would be too costly to ship this way but thanks the same. That is some project you have going on. Are you taking pics to document the progress as you proceed? Will be interesting to see the finished product.
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Old 02-26-2012, 12:28 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Ah OK. No problem, I don't mind offering the help.

Yeah, I'm going to work on a write-up in case there are any other All-Trac owners out there as crazy as me But it will also have useful info for anyone wanting to follow part of my build (such as the Honda ECU aspect). I've also got an Excel spreadsheet with all my purchases & wants/needs to keep track of things.

Buying the cruise control stuff is going to be extra work, and kind of a spur-of-the-moment decision while I was in the yard yesterday. I think I'm going to have to wire that from the ground up. Not looking forward to that... though it should be much easier than the Honda ECU thing.
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