7AGE conversion project

[punter]

Originally Posted by Piloter

150-170fwhp, I'm thinking, depending on whether the ECU can pick up on all the changes or I wind up getting a reprogram. Plus it'll be strong enough to throw a low-PSI turbo at it at my leisure later, and it'll last for another hundred thousand plus miles and ten years or more if I treat it half-decently.

I have no problen believing that it will last for 10~15 years, but aren't you runing a standard head and standard bottom end. Toyota claim that a bigport 4age makes 130hp @ crank (ish) what your saying it that a 12.5% increase in displacement (1.6-1.8) will yeild a 54% increase in HP (based on 200hp @ crank), seems unlikley.

Not to take away from your project thats a very good build up and a very special and unique car, and thanks for going to the trouble of sharing this

[toyotaspeed90]

toyota claimed the bigports at 115chp in 85/86 with the smaller crank, and 112chp in the later bigports (some 87, 88-89).... the later bigport actually has an ever so slightly smaller cam and larger injectors than the early bigport

the smallport was 130chp here in the states

150hp *might* be possible, but NOT whp....... besides, with the 1.8 block you'll make more torque than a standard 4ag, and that's where it counts.... everyone seems to forget that

[punter]

Originally Posted by toyotaspeed90

toyota claimed the bigports at 115chp in 85/86 with the smaller crank, and 112chp in the later bigports (some 87, 88-89).... the later bigport actually has an ever so slightly smaller cam and larger injectors than the early bigport

the smallport was 130chp here in the states

150hp *might* be possible, but NOT whp....... besides, with the 1.8 block you'll make more torque than a standard 4ag, and that's where it counts.... everyone seems to forget that

My mistake on the power figures, we only get JDM cars here

AFAIK there are only 2 types of cams for 16v motors (Toyota part numbers agree)

on a side note to HP vs Torque have a read of http://forums.toyspeed.org.nz/viewtopic.php?t=34715 is pretty interesting.

[storyr]

Originally Posted by toyotaspeed90

toyota claimed the bigports at 115chp in 85/86 with the smaller crank, and 112chp in the later bigports (some 87, 88-89).... the later bigport actually has an ever so slightly smaller cam and larger injectors than the early bigport

the smallport was 130chp here in the states

150hp *might* be possible, but NOT whp....... besides, with the 1.8 block you'll make more torque than a standard 4ag, and that's where it counts.... everyone seems to forget that

a little off topic and don't mean to hijack thread. But I may not have a ae86, but if you are selling your 4runner I would love to check it out...although 86' is IFS...but still, I sold my 1985 4runner summer of '04 and it was a huge mistake. I love my ae92 (white GT-S) but I miss my rig

[toyotaspeed90]

once i get the title to the runner there is someone in olympia who is trading me their ae86 with rebuilt motor & LSD rearend...... i just need time to hunt the guy down

*back to topic*
most people (other than mr2 owners, strangely enough) don't realize that the 85/86 have slightly larger cams than the 87+ bigports..... and of course, the smallport cams are quite a bit smaller.....

[ericlee303]

I'd like to see if I get any gains from putting the bigport cams into my 4AGZE?

[punter]

Originally Posted by ericlee303

I'd like to see if I get any gains from putting the bigport cams into my 4AGZE?

Then maybe you should start a new thread and ask, This has probably strayed of topic enough, its meant to be about a mint 7age

[chadix24_7]

are you still keeping the tvis with your 7age project or did you eliminate it?

[Piloter]

Whoops--by '150-170 fwhp' I meant flywheel horsepower, certainly not front wheel horsepower. Assuming that even after the transmission work the automatic transmission will represent a 30% loss, I think I'll be achieving 105-120 wheel horsepower. She was dynoed before the great 100mph-plus 2,400 mile sprint cross-country and was only getting something like 58 WHP...that'd represent quite the increase.

I've been attempting to model the engine's behavior in a variety of programs, namely Desktop Dyno 2003 and Engine Analyzer Pro--so far I think I've gotten a respectably-close setup on Desktop Dyno 2003. Based on valve size specs, correct bore and stroke, a CR calculator with a little fuzziness about the head gasket thickness and volume of valve reliefs (aren't the G-series heads non-interference? Archie must've shaved the head or block to increase compression ratio, because there sure as heck were valve reliefs cut into the piston tops...I wound up with a CR of 10 even), and actual cam specs, Dyno 2K3 gives me max HP of 158hp@6,500 RPM and 139lb/ft@5,500 (although it's about 137 as far down as 4,500.) Again, with a 30% drivetrain loss, this STILL represents almost 100lb/ft of torque at the wheels, considerably up from the paltry 65 on the dyno. Or, put another way, 150% of what I had before. This is reasonably in line with what Jamie got with the #577 grind and about the same build, so these simulations strike me as decently accurate. I'll put up a screenshot of the output tomorrow. I need to redo these in Engine Analyzer Pro 3.3, assuming I can get it to reinstall and fudge enough exhaust and manifold numbers to get half-decent results.

The entire price discussion is certainly valid. Had I known where to get parts cheaper, or how to haggle with junkyards, no doubt I could've saved some money. The machine work, though, let's bear in mind we're also talking about ~$500 worth of cams, ~$200 worth of head work, a complete rotational balance, multi-angle valve job, diassembling and Magnafluxing two engines, hot-tanking positively everythingand about $300 worth of sales tax. When I get down there tomorrow to pick up the rest of the leftovers (couldn't do it today, had a Celica Supra with a disconnected starter blocking the way of the borrow-o-van) I'll put up the detailed bill here so at least you folks have concrete data to argue over.


Future plans for this engine, since it'll probably outlast my old girl...who knows? I might try to pick up a late 80s MR2-SC, get the 7AGE built into a 7AGZE, drop it in the MR2, and tear up the street.

chadix24_7, I'm keeping the TVIS--the cams are mild enough not to require its elimination. And I like the idea of having the engine note change. :grin:

[ericlee303]

Those hp numbers sounds about right, i should of known fwhp meant flywheel. I can't believe the car only puts out 65 lb.ft at the wheel!!!

[toyotaspeed90]

Originally Posted by Piloter

a complete rotational balance, multi-angle valve job, diassembling and Magnafluxing two engines, hot-tanking positively everythingand about $300 worth of sales tax.

the balance was a good idea..... that is, if you plan on revving past 8,000.... if not, then you didn't need it since toyota has almost perfect balance from stock

the multi-angle valve job...... kinda makes me chuckle, since factory the 4age's have a 3-angle valve job

for those that don't know, magnafluxing is basically just a way for checking cracks in aluminum..... ie, checking to see if the head is cracked/warped from overheating

[toyotaspeed90]

Originally Posted by ericlee303

Those hp numbers sounds about right, i should of known fwhp meant flywheel. I can't believe the car only puts out 65 lb.ft at the wheel!!!

maybe....... after reading his post saying that he thinks he'll have right around 10.0:1 then i'm almost doubting that much of a gain. The 4age's don't make that much power, and adding cams don't change HP figures that much

don't forget.... the smallport (though it does have smaller cams) has a better flowing head (smoother torque/hp figures for longer periods) and 10.3:1.... with a 5 speed (internally stock, stock manifold) mine only produced 109.6whp..... which is a *fairly* respectable number for a stock 4age..... and that calculates to about 126 crank hp using a 15% drivetrain loss..... after owning it for a while and cleaning a lot of the crap out and removing unnecessary things i'm guessing i might put down 115whp right now.... which is still under 130hp

so... take that 130hp..... the longer stroke will give him more torque, but will limit how high it can rev (ie, possibly lower hp figures), add the larger cams, too much head flow, and remove some of the compression..... and i'm guessing it might be around 130-135 crank hp...... the torque, however, will be higher than my smallport by at least 15wtq i'm assuming....

my smallport 4age (terrible condition internally), header/exhaust, MSD ignition (since removed), had a broke dizzy cap at the time, and had a screwed up adjustable FPR on it

[Piloter]

Dropped by the machine shop to scoop up the leftover bits today, they're listed in the FS forum. Shameless promo: http://www.toyotanation.com/forum/sh...wpost&t=105489 .

I asked Archie if he could put the engine on his engine dyno, just to get some concrete numbers, but he doesn't have the adapter to connect it up. Ford, Chevy, Chrysler, Pontiac, but nothing foreign. Whoops. Here's a breakdown of the bill, and a screenshot of the dyno, and a picture of the TVIS system. One way or another--and there's no way to know how much until it's dialed in and dynoed--it'll generate more power and torque than stock. That, at least, I think everybody can agree upon.

Engine kit: 270.97
Timing belt: 15,87
WEB cams: 531.95
8 exhaust valves: 82.94
Freight and phone on parts: 26.61
Dist. cap: 20.01
Rotor: 3.28
Spark plugs: 9.30
Oil, oil filter, GM E.O.S, WDC, paint and assembly supplies: 32 [prepped with a non-street-legal racing oil]
Timing belt tension:28.87

Shot peen rods: 50
Degree cams: 80
Port work on head: 300
Extra labor to make brackets, etc: 30
Clean misc. on 2nd engine [4AGE]: 200
Tear down 2nd engine to short block: 120
Assembly complete: 480
Balance complete: 145
Hot tank misc: 45
Mag block: 35
Mag crank: 25
Mag rods: 18
Polish crank: 30
Set clearances: 40
Prep block: 20
Final wash block: 30
Line hone block: 110
Deck block: 65
Bore block: 80
Install soft plugs: 10
Resize rods: 50
Pin fit pistons: 8
Hang and align rods to pistons: 30
End gap rings: 20
Valve grind package: 595
Tear down engine: 150
Tank block: 35
WA sales tax: 294.30

[drift_ae86_91]

wow, those are some impressive results

[toyotaspeed90]

Originally Posted by drift_ae86_91

wow, those are some impressive results

those are estimated results...... it helps to read the entire post