I wanted to share my recent experience with turbocharging my Xrs, there is a ton of useful information that i came across and although i didnt go ahead with this project, it might help someone else with enough cash to spare for errors. so grab a coffee and read on.
First off: anyone who wants to learn about turbochargers setup on our cars, read up on Scionlife.com. There is a TON of information available there about do's and dont's, people have tried various kits, various methods etc for boosting and its a great source for starting point. It is also a great place to pickup used parts (and sometimes NEW) for a very reasonable price.
So descendant (world racing) makes turbo kits for Scion. they make a tuner kit and a full bolt on kit. the difference is that the tuner kit does not include engine management, the bolt on does. since our engine bay represents the xB-2 (08+) its the best place to start. There is a guy on scionlife by the user name "scionfred". He started off with the cheap CXRacing turbo kit and soon ran into problems, after much trial and error he finally accomplished that the best way to run boost on the xB is without engine management at 5-6 psi with only 440cc injectors. so in essence, you could run the tuner kit ($2995) from descendant racing for the xB with only 440cc upgraded injectors along with a Split Second Enricher (SSE explained later) for about 75-100 whp gains. this is proven in his threads, he has clocked over 15000 miles on this setup and also has a dyno to prove numbers. so I contacted him for advise.
I will just post up our PM's from SL and that should have all the details.
so i contacted rob @ descendant racing and he said i could have that used turbo/manifold/downpipe along with the rest of the tuner kit stuff for $1100 to make it a Tuner kit. thats $1100 vs $2995 for what it orignally goes for. which is why i had an interest in it. you can read the details of that sale on the thread. i believe it is still up for sale, the turbo does not have warranty anymore since its manufactured by turbonetics and the warranty period is up.
Here are the PM's:
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScionFred Hey Anil,
If it's $1100 + shipping for everything except the FMIC pipes, it's a steal! $325 for new 440s is a good price too.
Other things to consider are how you'll do your oil pan tap. You could buy the TRD oil pan for ~$200 or mod your own pan for a lot less. Are the Inj's PnP or do you need clips? Is the wastegate adjustable? How much of the fab work can you do and who will do the rest? You'll probably need to re-work the DP to fit your exhaust and the custom IC piping will probably require some TIG welding. You might need mounting brackets for the IC.
Other than that, gauges, catch can, misc. hoses and vacuum lines, etc.
It sounds like a great deal and leaves you with a lot of leftover to cover the customization you'll need to fit your car.
i spoke with rob, he said the turbo doesnt have warranty anymore (or maybe 1 month left) since its from turbonetics and they issue a one year warranty from the date or purchase. but he said the turbo is in good condition and has no shaft play.
he has quoted me $1100 for everything (800 for that turbo/manifold + rest of the tuner kit stuff). plus shipping/handling.
this is what he said:
To make this a DESCENDANT tuner kit you would still need the following items:
I asked him to also include 440cc injectors, he said they would be additional $325. he also said he can include the fmic but i will have to custom make 2 pipes for it, which should not be an issue i think.
what are your opinions on this, is there anything else i should be asking him besides what i am getting ? other than that i would only need other misc stuff like guages, catch can and little things, correct ?
thanks
Anil
This is after my friends said i will blow my motor without engine management, and this is what fred had to say:
Re: turbo questions.
Anil, your friends are thinking of older OBD1 cars that lacked a wide-band O2 (AFR) sensor. To put it simply, the way our ECU works is that it uses AFR feedback from the primary WB O2 sensor to maintain a 14.7:1 AFR whenever it's in closed loop (O2 feedback mode). What happens with the 440s is that the ECU adjusts the fuel trims to compensate for the extra flow. The ECU can compensate up to 25% +/- and 440s need about -20% max. This is why 440s works w/o a piggy and 550+ does not.
Under higher engine loads and higher rpm the ECU will enter open loop and ignore the O2 sensor feedback. This is where the 440s provide the extra fuel required by boost. I've tried the FIC and the $2000 Dezod/APR X1 and neither piggy worked as well as the oe ECU.
There is always the possibility that this setup may not work as well for you as it does for me. It would be a good idea to have a backup plan just in case. You could always add a Unichip or FIC but you shouldn't need to.
There's too much to cover in a PM so if you want to give me a call, I'll try to answer any questions you still have.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kniterider09 hey fred,
As excited i am, I am still going to take a few days to think about it, cause few of my friends are saying i am gona damage the motor running it without any engine management, that the bigger injectors are just gona make it run rich all the time even at idle, does the SSE correct that problem ?
and yes i will have the issue of bolting this on and doing custom work cause winter is approaching fast and i personally dont have a lot of tools, giving it to a shop to do everything would mean big bucks again.
not sure if the WG is adjustable, its 8psi, will ask rob about that.
Anil
Re: turbo questions. by Scionfred
I forgot to mention that you can't run 8 psi w/o management. I wouldn't go above 6psi with the oe ecu and 440s. I had an adjustable internal WG on my last turbo and was able to set it for 5 psi.
Two things are likely to damage your engine w/o management and a tune.
1) Detonation
2) Lean AFR
The ECU has a very sensitive knock sensor and pulls timing when it hears any knock. Few people pull any timing at only 5psi on the 2AZ.
With 440s the only time you'd be lean is when boost builds while the ECU is still in CL. The SSE takes care of that by adding fuel the moment boost builds. It works the same as the FIC O2 table.
I think thats all the usefull stuff we discussed. so basically our stock ECU is more capable and flexible than most of us assume.
These are his threads on SL, can be found under forced induction section of xB-2. here the links anyway:
Now the big question, why did i not do this. I think i am confident when i say scionfred knows what he's talking about, and i am more than willing to try this out. however, while i have the cash to get that kit and other misc items, i dont have the cash for backup in case something goes wrong, and i also dont have the cash to pay a shop to do this, If i had a few friends helping me out I am sure we could bolt this up ourselves. and also, its almost winter, the ideal time to do this is summer.
So, why did i post this ? I posted this so others can be aware that this can be done, and that it has already been done. you will find all that info in those threads, so please read them before posting up repeat questions.
good luck to anyone who decides to tackle this in the future.
Lastly, let this be clear: neither ME, nor anyone mentioned in this thread is liable in any way for any damage caused to your car and/or yourself. Anything you do is at your own risk.
found your stuff on 9thgen....going thru it right now!
EDIT:
nice setup. you can go 8psi easy on your tune. as far as what the motor can handle, let me tell you this. on a really good tune, you can have 300 whp easy and it would be reliable as well. folks at scionlife have done it with their tc's (same motor), boosted for 50K miles on top of their original miles and still ticking. so yes, you will be ok on more boost, just get the right tune. if you start pushing past 300, then you will need to rebuild.
yea, thats my video up there, if you type in 09 turbo xrs, more videos will pull up or if you look under my account at the top next to my username, more videos are there to watch, the ones at the track are from this past saturday when i was doing pulls and datalogging and tuning. this car never did see a shop, did everything myself including the tuning and my build specs are: 2azfe Cast Iron drag style manifold
Garrett T3/T4 turbo 70 trim
5 bolt stainless steel downpipe to stock exhaust (open downpipe right now)
Stainless braided oil feed and return lines
HKS SSQ like BOV
38 mm turbo external wastegate (7psi spring)
Autometer Phantom2 Boost Gauge
2.5 inch turbo piping
jdm sports intercooler
RC 440 injectors
PNP injector clips from Dezod.com
Boomslang pnp Wire harness for EMS AEM FIC piggy back AEM AFR UEGO wired into the ecu
Basic coilovers w/ 30mm wheel spacers
Last edited by twinscrollinxrs; 12-20-2010 at 06:02 AM.
but i recommend a top mount turbo manifold because the manifold i have barely fits it there and is very frustrating when installing, i would think that a top mount turbo kit would be way better, i think thats what i'm going to save up for next, a top mount manifold
Last edited by twinscrollinxrs; 12-20-2010 at 06:06 AM.
Can I see side shots of your car? I noticed your put spacers on your stockies, I'm planning on keeping mine for a while and I've been toying to find out what size I need to have that 'flush' look.
Pics would be great, and where did you purchase your spacers?
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