Critique my mod!

[toyotas4all]

Hi everyone was just trying to get everyone's opinions on a mod I'm doing. Please provide as much constructive criticism as your heart desires.

Car: 2010 Toyota Corolla LE Automatic
Sound System: Base System, non JBL, 4 speakers

What I listen to usually:
1. Oldies......lol
2. Classic Rock
3. Some R&B
4. Mostly listen to these on the radio

Problems: (Why I want to do this)
1. Can't hear the details in my music on the freeway unless I bring it up to 25. Sometimes can barely hear the lyrics.
2. Can't hear the details in my music when I have a full back seat,,,which is often,,,,unless I bring it up to 25
3. I feel that the sound system lacks clarity in general
4. I seem to be hearing most of my music from the back....I attribute this to having both front speakers down at feet level.

Concerns: (How much modding I am comfortable doing)
1. I want to keep the factory look..I live in a somewhat shady neighborhood. No new headunits
2. No amps, I'm concerned about having things too complicated
3. I basically just want the best sound out of the stock head unit with only changing speakers.

Alright now here's my solution!!

Front:
Alpine SPX-17REF
Speaker Size 6-1/2"
Design 2-way Component System
Tweeter Design Dome
Tweeter Composition Not Specified
Woofer Composition Aluminum
Woofer Surround Nitrile Butadiene Rubber (NBR)
Peak Power Handling 225 watts
RMS Power Handling 75 watts
Sensitivity 90 dB
Frequency Response 35 - 40000 Hz
Impedance (per voice coil) 4 ohms
Top Mount Depth N/A
Bottom-mount depth N/A
Cutout Dimensions N/A

I figure a lot of the issues of me hearing is that the front speakers are not ear level to me. So by adding tweeters and replacing the LE stock sail panels with the S stock sail panels I'll be able to properly mount the tweeters and still make it look factory.

Rear Speakers:
Alpine SPR-69C
Speaker Size 6" x 9"
Design 2-way
Tweeter Design 1" Ring Dome
Tweeter Composition Silk
Woofer Composition Hybrid Layered Pulp
Woofer Surround Rubber
Peak Power Handling 300 watts
RMS Power Handling 100 watts
Sensitivity 89 dB
Frequency Response 60 - 27000 Hz
Impedance (per voice coil) 4 ohms
Top Mount Depth 3"
Bottom-mount depth N/A
Cutout Dimensions N/A

At the moment I hear most of my music from the back, so I definetely want that to be of somewhat decent quality. I want the back to be more of a general fill sound, so I figure I don't need to get components for them.

Alright, any input is always welcome!

[NautiCorolla]

I've just upgraded my speakers and the difference is night and day went from stock to kenwoods..

Clarity is 100x better. No amps were used.

[LeanBurn]

What about simply playing with the fader...

25 is not all that bad, not even half volume...


I used to have an after market system, 2 10's, separates, amps...the whole 9 yards...I was always worried who was window shopping when I wasn't around, insurance is OK, but the feeling of being violated by a car prowler just wasn't worth it to me. Not only window shoppers, but having an audio presence can have people come to check your stuff out too, and the serious prowlers will follow and track you. The stuff you plan on getting will be heard quite a ways from where you live and word gets around.


I have my system (same as yours) set to Fader front 1...bass -3 treble +5, sounds good enough for me for stock anyways....

...Plus its in a car, one of the worst acoustic environments...ever. I save all my audio goodies for home, a much more controlled environment.

In the end adding decent speakers to a factory system is only going to improve a minuscule amount....my 2c CAD or 2.084USD

[rallykid]

The stock head unit has nowhere near enough power to push those speakers. With it having minimal power you are going to find you still have horrible sound. You are either going to need to replace the stock head unit or run an amp. Even with an aftermarket head unit you may find yourself needing an amp to get the best quality sound. If you are still dead set on keeping the stock headunit then add an amp to the to do list.

The DB691's and 651's that I am running sounded slightly better with the stock unit but didn't really come to life until I put more power to them. The more power a speaker can handle, the bigger the magnet. The bigger the magnet, the more power you need to move the cones. Maybe look at some lower power speakers if you don't want to run an amp and keep the stock head unit.

[SuperchargedMR2]

If you are going to run your new speakers with the stock HU than find some more efficient speakers in the 94-95dB range. That will make a lot more of a difference too. Also play with your fader & shift the music up front a little more. And FYI, 25 volume level isn't that loud, I listen to my level at 25-35 with my JBL system all the time.

[toyotas4all]

Darn, I was hoping a sensitivity rating of 90 dB would be enough to compensate for my stock head unit's lack of power. I suppose I was picking the Alpines were because I heard that the stock stereo's impedance was 4 ohms so I was trying to match it to that. How important is it that I have the impedance match?

For those of you who suggested amps? Any recommendations for ones that will easily fit under the driver's seat?

[rallykid]

Not sure about fitting under the seat. I have my Kenwood that is pushing my subs mounted to back of my rear seat so it is in the trunk. I had it mounted under the seat in my Wrangler but there was a lot more room there than under the Corolla seat.

I am thinking either this one:

Amazon

Amazon

or this one to push my Polks as I only need about 40-50 watts RMS.

http://www.crutchfield.com/p_113KAC6...04.html?tp=115

The Kenwood looks small, it might fit under the seat but have a backup plan to mount it somewhere else if it doesn't.

[TFCommanderBob]

I usually like the sound of Polk Audio stuff. This set grants you slightly higher sensitivity without breaking the bank or changing the impedance. The importance of sensitivity is the capability of higher volume level at lower wattage. I could be incorrect, but I believe the rating of decibels is based from just 1 watt of power. The more power you add, the louder the volume level. Small changes in DB at given wattage can significantly increase max volume level, as well as improve sound quality at low volumes.

Great reading on sensitivity: http://www.integratedaudio.com/help/sensitivity.pdf
Geared toward pro audio, but w/e

As for amps, anything class D should most likely fit easily. Class D amps are generally small footprint amps that are great for driving 4 channels. They are smaller because they generate much less heat, and require less heatsink. I picked up a used Alpine PDX-5 5 channel amp for around $240 on eBay, and put it under my drivers seat. In my current setup, I dont have a fader. My rear Polks, though not as good quality sound as my front pioneer components, overpower the pioneers. I haven't looked at specs in a few years, but I bet the polks are more sensitive. A PDX 4.100 might be around 200 or less now that the newer models have come out.

Wattage rating is BS. Currently the most skewed figure on the market. I'd probably just ignore it.

[rallykid]

Originally Posted by TFCommanderBob

Wattage rating is BS. Currently the most skewed figure on the market. I'd probably just ignore it.

Yes and no, depends on if you are talking about a reliable company that rates their stuff properly or some cheap company that uses substandard parts, hooks it up to a tester, it touches 1000 watts for a second and then they sell it as a 1000 Watt amp when it is only putting out 40 watts RMS.

If you are talking actual wattage do not ignore the ratings. Hook a 60 watt RMS rated speaker up an amp putting out 500 watts RMS of clean power and you will blow it out.

[toyotas4all]

Thank you all for your contributions.

Everyone is pointing out that I don't have enough power to drive my speakers.

Based on a previous thread : Stock Speaker/Head Unit Specs the post from Jeff states that my stock speakers have an (RMS assuming) rating of 20W. That should put the stock head unit at around 17W +/- 2W.

The Alpines that I am considering have an RMS of 75W and 100W respectively, and I believe this is where people say I don't have enough power. Roughly 20W stock head unit to run those speakers.

@Nautycorolla: Could you tell me what model kenwoods you used to upgrade with?

@Superchargedmr2: I think i'm concerned because I've noticed that anything above 25-27 or so, I can barely hear what's happening around the road with me, and I'm concerned I might not hear a honk...that I should probably hear. Is it just me or are a lot of vehicles being made today coming out with such pathetic sounding horns.

@TFCommanderBob: I understand the effects of sensitivity, can you explain the importance of impedance matching to me in layman's terms?

@Rallykid: you state that hooking up a 60W RMS rated speaker up to 500W will blow the speaker, but are there any possible malfunctions in my scenario, where I don't put enough power to the speaker?

[rallykid]

Best case scenario with severely underpowering them is you get diminished volume output and horrible sound quality. Worst case scenario you drive them as hard as you can due to low volume from low power output, you get distortion and the speakers blow.

[TFCommanderBob]

http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-impedance.htm

Impedance as I see it, and I have no formal electronics training:

Basically the amount of resistance which the speaker presents to the current flow from the head unit. Changing the impedance can cause the speaker to attempt to draw more power than the headunit is capable of consistently supplying, due to a lower amount of resistance. The higher the impedance (measured in Ohms) the more resistance is presented. Higher resistance may mean that the speaker just cannot receive enough power because not everything that the amp puts out gets to the speaker.

People usually match impedance easily with subs by wiring in parallel or in series to achieve the amplifiers expected output. To do that with door speakers would be way too complicated.

Commence tirade on wattage:

You can, imo, probably get reasonable sound out of a set of 4 ohm speakers with high sensitivity even using the stock headunit. My opinion on the matter of watts is very similar to my complaint about HDMI cables in a recent post. HDMI cables have stickers all over them claiming they can transmit 120hz/240hz/480hz. To give the article a quick paraphrase: The CEO of AudioQuest, a higher end cable manufacturer than the much complained about Monster brand, talked about the rating system. He basically said, they do it (monster/others), and if we didn't then we'd lose business.

It is all because of marketing, and marketing is all about using vaguely true statistics to give the consumer into the perception that your product is better than theirs using nothing but words, regardless of the true performance of the product.

The same thing is happening with wattage. People see wattage as the only factor in whether a speaker is louder, and determine that the system is better because of higher "handling" capabilities. Since people think higher is better, every manufacturer has begun raising those numbers because of marketing, not because of the design of the speaker. Good luck sorting out the brands that make an attempt at true output power on amps vs those that don't.

I sold full commission home electronics for a few years. So many people walk in asking about how a $200 HTIB is "1000watts, that must be great, right!?!" dryly, All that off a 120 watt powersupply. yeah it rocks.

/rant

I still think that though you are indeed going to be severely underpowering the speakers, it is possible to go without an amp without major malfunction. They just might not reach a clarity or volume level you are pleased with, and only you can decide that.

[TFCommanderBob]

Although I don't ever find Best Buy particularly useful, this writeup explaining amplification is done well, in very simple to understand language. Unlike if you were to go read about impedance on Wikipedia.

[NautiCorolla]

I've re read your post and upgrading the speakers won't help you in your situation unless you power them with a amp. As I have to turn mine quite high for it to be loud enough to enjoy, and at these volumes the clarity is way better then stock. BUT if you turn it up too high it will distort which you must avoid for fear of blowing speakers as rallykid stated.

Your complaint seems to be how high you have to turn the volume up to have it at a decent listening level. I think that must be a Toyota thing. As when my car was all stock system I always had it quite high to listen to it comfortably. Id give you a number but the 2011 corolla doesn't use volume number, if it does I never noticed but it's well over 3/4 up on the volume indication bar before and after the speaker upgrade..

And with all that said I do plan to install a amp for the front speakers to get the power out of them they were built to handle.(I like my music loud and clear)

I also plan to add either 1 or 2 12" subs.

So with my upgrade it's different scenario as I don't plan to stop at just replacing the speakers.

[toyotas4all]

EDIT: DIdn't quite have the formatting right...hopefully this makes it easier to read.

So from what everyone has said, I'm not going to have enough power to drive the speakers I originally wanted. I've looked into a couple "lower quality" speakers with lower RMS values and high sensitivity.

I've narrowed it down to:

Model:------ RMS Peak Sensitivity
Focal 165 A1------ 60 120 92
DLS Reference R63------ 60 90 93
DLS Classic C36------ 60 90 93
JL Audio TR650-CSi------ 50 100 91
Boston Acoustics SE60------ 55 150 92
DLS Classic C6A------ 60 90 93
Boston Acoustics S60------ 55 150 92
DLS Performance B6A ------ 50 80 91
Pioneer TS-A1604C ------ 50 350 90
DLS Performance K6------ 50 80 92

Out of all these guys, the highest RMS value is 60, The lowest sensitivity is 90 dB. Anyone have any experience with these speakers. Which would be my best choice for my application?

My Application:
Running off of stock corolla head unit, non JBL.