well....almost...the court still needs to approve and put it in effect. the only prob is that an engine may run for years with the sludge without failing, until it puts it outside that 8 year limit. then if it decides to fail your sol... they're not allowing to have engines inspected before failure to see if sludge has built and then do something about it.
how do people get that problem? do they just not change oil or something? I'm confused why an engine would have sludge if it was maintained and serviced?
lol....that's what toyota keeps saying. but it is proven even new oil can be turned to sludge. it is said that certain places in the engine run much hotter, and under high load or sustained high speed are more prone to turning oil to sludge, despite how few miles are on the oil, and so certain engines are more prone to having a sludge problem. the sludge starts coating the engine, and over time the build up can become heavy, even tho the oil is changed often.
can see the build up when i looked down.. when i took off the oil cap
Remember, what you see when you take the oil cap off is a "baffle" with a textured surface that everyone thinks is a build up of sludge. Well, it's not. Like BadChicken said, you really do have to take the valve cover off to see it.
silverxls is absolutely right. I just bought an Avalon, and wouldn't you know it, it turned 8 years old just a couple of weeks before I bought it. Now, although the sludge obviously didn't develop overnight, Toyota tells me that it is too late to qualify for the benefits of the settlement. And in case anyone is wondering, the previous owners have provided me with records of oil changes for the last couple of years (at least five per year).
S.O.L. is right!
The worst part, is that I really, truly like the car. It's perfect, except for the whole "time to scrap it" thing. Cruel irony! LOL. Win some, lose some.
silverxls is absolutely right. I just bought an Avalon, and wouldn't you know it, it turned 8 years old just a couple of weeks before I bought it. Now, although the sludge obviously didn't develop overnight, Toyota tells me that it is too late to qualify for the benefits of the settlement. And in case anyone is wondering, the previous owners have provided me with records of oil changes for the last couple of years (at least five per year)
- Don't give up so quickly. The notice I got in the mail says the deadline is extended into March 2007.
I have a 97 Camry from new. Had to replace the engine in 2003 at 134k miles. Bought a 2001 Avalon this summer with 80k on it before I knew of this problem. I have a case number for the Camry and am putting together documentation. I will have the Avalon looked at by a dealer within the next few weeks.
- According to what I recieved, yes. There is a LOT on this subject around the net. Google will keep yopu busy for a while.
What's the bottom line on the sludge issue? There doesn't seem to be a thread that summarizes this (been to www.oilgelsettlement.com).
OK let's get specific to Avalons and stay on topic.
The settlement is for 1997-2002 Avalons. OK. What does that mean? Is it because the suit was STARTED in 1998 and by the time the case got rolling, it was 2002 so *2002* ended up being the last year written into the settlement?
Were the 2003-2004 Avalon engines left out unintentionally in the suit?
Or did Toyota make a change to the V6 1MZ engine in the 2003 and 2004 Avalon models to fix the sludge problem (widen oil passageways, etc). And if so,where is there a reference to this change? I can't find one anywhere on the web.
So, was there a slipstream change in the 2003 and 2004 Avalon V6 engine that solved this problem?
Those of us looking to buy Gen 3 2000-2004 Avalons would like to know.
Dealerships are often not allowed to give prior owner information (so you can call and check dealership records for oil changes, etc). So you're stuck as a used car buyer since you can't drop the pan or pull off the valve covers and Toyota (in most cases) have you over a barrel if you're not the original owner. [ they can always claim "inadequate documentation of engine care".]
I read one thread that said 2000-2002 were the best Avalons in general for quality (but they didn't quantify why they believe it declined in 2003-2004). Certainly the sludge issue is a concern for anyone buying a used 2nd or 3rd generation Avalon up to 2002. The gist seems to be "if you can prove you changed your oil religiously at a dealership" Toyota will fix it.
Hard to prove good maintenance if you buy a used car with 60k miles and an unknown history.
Best case, you look at a 2000-2002 that's a trade vehicle where the owner bought at the same dealership. Toyota service records are local to the dealership and you can get them without knowing the owner's name. But for most cases, the car was bought elsewhere and it's hard to track down service info. Most DMVs (probably all) won't give you owner info based on an old Carfax title number.
. . . OK let's get specific to Avalons and stay on topic.
. . . the 2003-2004 Avalon engines left out unintentionally in the suit?
. . . Or did Toyota make a change to the V6 1MZ engine in the 2003 and 2004 Avalon models to fix the sludge problem (widen oil passageways, etc). And if so,where is there a reference to this change? I can't find one anywhere on the web.
. . . Dealerships are often not allowed to give prior owner information (so you can call and check dealership records for oil changes, etc). So you're stuck as a used car buyer since you can't drop the pan or pull off the valve covers and Toyota (in most cases) have you over a barrel if you're not the original owner. [ they can always claim "inadequate documentation of engine care".]
Stephen
If you are referring to my mention of my Camry, I was responding to the subject of the post, which adresses more than the Avalon - Maybe the post should be moved? Besides, it's the same engine in both my vehicles. Maybe you could pretend I'm only referencing Avalons.
From what I found on the net, the 2003 and up were left out intentionally, and there was a change made to the size of the oil return passages in the heads to facilitate greater flow and lower oil temps.
As for the documentation. I've owned the Camry from new, so I have that covered, The used Avalon will be taken to the dealer so I can establish a base point. I really don't care if it's gelled or not. If it's gelled, I expect to discuss remediation with Toyota to address it, if not gelled, I expect to keep it that way.
I don't have the links with the references, Got them all with a few Google searches and about two hours of reading - primnarily 5 different sites. All available to you. If I have time I'll see if I can dig up a few of them for you.
Meant no disrespect Roady94. I hadn't read your post fully. My bad.
Your search kung-fu is much better than mine. I only found one official statement by the Toyota spokesman (see below) about a mid-year (2002) change to the V6 engine to fix the oil baffle - though I'm sure there's a production change TSB somewhere.
Here are some general statements about the problem. (Underlines = my emphasis)
To help prevent sludge, Toyota in 2003 shortened the recommended oil-change interval from 7,500 miles to 5,000 miles on its vehicles. It also has given lessees incentives to maintain their vehicles properly.
(this is basically an owner manual change which was done to protect Toyota. People don't change their habits much. If they were 7500 mile oil changers with their 1992 Camry, they'll do the same with their 2002. What's changed is the engine design and tolerance for this type of maintenance schedule)
and later: (a repair technician who had fixed 30 or so motors)
(Larry) Parry said he has measured the temperature of the cylinder block and heads. He said the block runs at 190 to 210 degrees Fahrenheit, while the heads typically reach 260 to 270 degrees. ..
According to General Motors, the industry standard for temperature differences between the cylinder head and engine block is between 10 and 15 degrees.
I wonder if this means these engines are more susceptable to head gasket failure, too, due to this temp difference. (head warping, coolant in the combustion chamber).
The implication from several sources is Toyota cheaped out trying to solve an emissions problem by adding heat to aid combustion with the unintended consequence of cooking petroleum based "standard" oil (what 90% of shops and consumers use) and causing both sludge (block oil passages) and possible head gasket problems.
2. Consumer Affairs Toyota and Lexus owners manuals specify that the oil should be changed every 7,500 miles or every six months, whichever comes first. Under severe driving conditions, oil should be changed every 5,000 miles or four months.
3. Carpages.com (talking about the V6 Camry 1997-2001) The 3.0-litre engine occasionally experienced oil sludge accumulation in the cylinder head drain back passages preventing sufficient oil flow from the top of the engine to the oil pan. This may overwhelm both the valve stem seals and PCV system, causing oil consumption and occasionally emitting burnt oil vapor from the tailpipe.
OK, first mention of 'drain back' passages clogging from sludge being the problem, not baffles.
I think this means check your PCV for clogging (change if necessary) and use synthetic oil. 270 degrees is better handled by synthetic than standard oil. Also, watch for blue smoke if buying used. If you're buying from a new car dealership (esp Toyota), have them pull the valve cover and have a look at it (A Toyota dealer is more likely to comply than, say, a Ford). If it's sludgy, it'll look like brownies inside.
Here is the only reference I can find to this V6 engine upgrade that would cover the Avalon for late 2002 and into 2003 - 2004.
1. USA Today (4/3/2002)
(Company Spokesman) Hanson says the company is making an immediate change to its V-6 engine that will give a wider margin of error if people wait too long to change their oil. A redesign of the four-cylinder already incorporated a similar change.
That sounds good but doesn't mention the oil "drain back" passages or new head. "An immediate change" sounds more like a sheetmetal baffle change - something relatively simple for Toyota to hang their hat on that they "did" something. A new cylinder head would require new castings or boring existing passages (labor intensive) - something much less likely to be done "immediately" (as Hanson states) on an automated assembly line.
Later, on a "www.autosafety.org" page from April 8, 2002 (5 days after the USA Today article).
(Hanson) "Under the cam cover is a baffle system," he said. "It allows oil to collect and condense and drip down into the cylinder head. Dirty vapor collects there and clogs up. We are going to change the baffling and enlarge the holes. That makes the oil drain faster and enhances the engine's ability to function under duress."
But Larry Parry (the same Parry from the quote above who has repaired 30 engines), an independent repair technician in Orlando, Fla., and host of a radio auto-repair talk show, says Toyota's change to the oil baffles won't stop the sludge from building up.
"There's nothing on top of the engine restricting the drain at all in that motor," he said. The internal temperatures are the problem, contends Parry.
So, it appears to me that what the Toyota spokesperson Hanson is talking about - regarding the slipstream production fix in mid-2002 engines - is a baffle (cheap sheetmetal) fix and not a cylinder head fix (which is what I assumed the "oil passage" fix was).
If we're talking about the baffle holes, it sounds like there isn't agreement that this solves the problem or is even the true source of the problem.
If Larry Parry has taken apart 30 engines for rebuild (perhaps more since this was in 2002), I'm sure he could note whether holes in a sheetmetal baffle are clogged.
The heat issue is more likely the primary cause - due to the small oil passages perhaps or inadequate cooling in certain areas of the block (even if your temp gauge shows normal). Just put some standard oil in a pan and put it on your stove and let it cool - instant sludge. If this sludgy oil plugs the "drain back" passages (how the oil gets back to the pan for re-circulation), bad things happen.
It seems like people have BOTH top and bottom end problems which points away from a single part like a baffle. If it was just the baffle, you'd get top end problems (valve seals gone early causing minimal oil consumption yes, but not motor lockup).
If someone can find reference to a cylinder head fix, please post it here.
Talking to one Toyota dealership, the service manager wasn't technical enough to describe what was fixed on the assembly line - only the diagnosis
- engine misfire (code thrown) (could be PCV clogged, plugs fouled, catalytic converted plugged)
- blue smoke on startup (valve guides)
- inspect under valve cover for sludge. (look for brownies)
1st dealership had not had to replace or repair a sludge engine yet. Trying another dealership.
2nd dealership - This dealership has replaced many engines due to this. One in particular had a con rod go and needed a new short block and head. Same story as #1 - no one knows the assembly line change, only the inspection procedure. For tradeins, this dealer's standard procedure is to remove the valve cover for sludge inspection before putting the car back on the lot for sale. (good)
*MOST* Toyota dealers will be forced to do the valve cover inspection for trade-in Toyotas in the "sludge affected" years to avoid costly engine repairs from disgrunted customers. Cars that don't pass the test will immediately be send to auction. The law of averages says a higher percentage of the cars people buy from used car brokers "Joes Used Cars" will be the sludge cars.
Toyota.com email: Sent a mail to Toyota directly to see if we can get an answer. They pretty much turned me back around to the local dealer even though I'd specified I wanted a *technical* answer and no dealership I'd contacted knew about the manufacturing change.
I think the best bet might be a 2003 or 2004 Avalon for safety sake and use synthetic and the 5k interval. Buy from a Toyota dealer and have them pull the valve cover and do the inspection before putting down your money.
This problem will hammer resale value for some of these models. This is quite a mess for Toyota.
What happened to the company that so overengineered their 1986 Corolla and Camry engines that you could abuse them without oil changes (and often with only 1-2 qts of oil in the pan) and they'd still run forever?
My family has 2 Camry's in the affected range (2000, 2002)
I just rode to the airport Monday in a '99 Sienna that had 167K on it, 120K of taxi use. Only thing done to it was oilchanges, tires and brakes. Still had the original plugs in it. You would think that thing would have had problems by now. I still think it is a combination of engine design and poor maintanence and maybe the oil quality. When I worked on air cooled VW engines that ran real hot, the one's the used Castrol had tons of crap in them, the Valvoline engines were clean as new after 100K+. I think the a lot of stealerships use Castrol, hmmm....
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