So what is the deal with the window motors in these cars?

[cbd1]

My wife drives a 98 Avalon and I find I am continually replacing driver side window motors. I am on the 5th motor now that has failed and I am wondering if this is typical? I have purchased rebuilt motors in every case, but this last time I specifically bought a rebuilt from O'reilly auto with a lifetime warranty as they only seem to last about 6 months.

When they fail, they usually become intermittent almost as though there is some problem with the brush to armature contact. Each time, I remove the door panel and tap into the wires and get a strong 12+v to the motor. I replace with another rebuilt and it lasts about another 6 months..

I don't understand it because she really doesn't use the window that much. She doesn't even drive on a tollway, so maybe once or twice every couple of days.. The regulator and tracks are super well lubricated with ptfe and each time I replace it, it works just beautiful for a while and never runs slowly.

Is this pretty standard on these cars? The metal tabs that you have to bend on the regulator to replace the motor are probably not going to continue to take this bending back and fourth too much longer so I was wondering if some of you have seen similar results with rebuilt motors?


Any help would be appreciated,

Thanks!

[TrailDust]

Good question. Whatever the issue with the motors Toyota still hasn't addressed it as my 2002 is doing the same thing. My driver's side window started acting up six months ago and will barely move up or down. The passenger side window is starting to make some funky noises too. I've just kept my Avalon window up as a "solution" for the time being since I hate having open windows anyway and can live with them up. I'd be interested in any aftermarket motors/fixes that work before fixing mine.

[ImDisaster]

Only had ours a year but haven't experienced any problems with window motors.

[robcam13]

ive worked at a toyota dealer for over 5 years and havent seen many motor problems at all. we usually lube the window tracks and that fixes the problems

[cbd1]

Originally Posted by robcam13

ive worked at a toyota dealer for over 5 years and havent seen many motor problems at all. we usually lube the window tracks and that fixes the problems

Thank you, that is good to know. Since this is the case, I can only guess that the rebuilt motors (A1 Cardone) are not being properly reconditioned as they are all dying after about the same period of time and in the exact same way. They never become weak, after a few months they just intermittently work and this becomes more and more frequent until they stop altogether.

Checking voltage at the motor when in condition, I always get full batt voltage with the motor connected, so it doesn't seem to be a low current issue.

Thanks!

[ImDisaster]

Originally Posted by cbd1

Thank you, that is good to know. Since this is the case, I can only guess that the rebuilt motors (A1 Cardone) are not being properly reconditioned as they are all dying after about the same period of time and in the exact same way. They never become weak, after a few months they just intermittently work and this becomes more and more frequent until they stop altogether.

Checking voltage at the motor when in condition, I always get full batt voltage with the motor connected, so it doesn't seem to be a low current issue.

Thanks!

Instead of checking the voltage have you tried applying voltage to a "failed" motor? Just jump it directly from your battery.

[cbd1]

Originally Posted by ImDisaster

Instead of checking the voltage have you tried applying voltage to a "failed" motor? Just jump it directly from your battery.

Yup, sure did.. I had a lot of doubt that these motors just kept on failing and I wanted to blame the relay or the switch so I also tried connecting directly to the battery. The funny thing is that they never get weak, but just start getting intermittent. So, I figured there was some brush to armature contact issue with these. But, given that others haven't seen the same issue.....

Now that I have another dead one, I might just clean up the commutator before returning it to O'reillys for a replacement and see if it starts working. Just out of curiosity, of course, I'll still swap it for another.

One thing is for sure, I can replace one of these in about 15 mins flat now, so no sweat!!

I also have a lock actuator question, but I'll start a new thread for that one.

Thanks!

[ImDisaster]

Originally Posted by cbd1

Yup, sure did.. I had a lot of doubt that these motors just kept on failing and I wanted to blame the relay or the switch so I also tried connecting directly to the battery. The funny thing is that they never get weak, but just start getting intermittent. So, I figured there was some brush to armature contact issue with these. But, given that others haven't seen the same issue.....

It does sound like a brush issue. Also sounds like you have more than a passing knowledge of electric motors. Is it easy to get to the brush/commutator? A "proper" refurbishing should include turning the commutator to get a fresh clean finish with lots of contact. You'd also want the brushes to have the proper radius so they don't burn the commutator and reduce the life. I'd check to see if the brush springs were good and if the brushes moved freely. One thing you might try is a "proper" motor break-in. This helps create a good contact between the commutator and the brushes during the early stages, when arcing can be an issue. To do this you run the motor at a lower voltage under water for a bit.

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_5628228/tm.htm

[cbd1]

Originally Posted by ImDisaster

It does sound like a brush issue. Also sounds like you have more than a passing knowledge of electric motors. Is it easy to get to the brush/commutator? A "proper" refurbishing should include turning the commutator to get a fresh clean finish with lots of contact. You'd also want the brushes to have the proper radius so they don't burn the commutator and reduce the life. I'd check to see if the brush springs were good and if the brushes moved freely. One thing you might try is a "proper" motor break-in. This helps create a good contact between the commutator and the brushes during the early stages, when arcing can be an issue. To do this you run the motor at a lower voltage under water for a bit.

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_5628228/tm.htm

Thanks for the tips! I was actually a Ford technician for about 11 years before changing careers, so I have some limited knowledge of DC motors. I'll probably take that motor out tomorrow and inspect it. It is really easy to separate the armature from the housing. There are just 2 phillips head screws to remove the housing and permanent magnets. I have to do this every replacement anyway so that I can turn the armature by hand to get to the nuts holding the regulator to the window glass, since it always fails in the up position. I am curious to see if the mica is not being undercut properly and is wiping on the commutator prematurely. But this would be an unusually simple mistake for a re-builder to make, I think. We'll see. I do like the idea of the proper break-in though. Thanks for that!

Speaking of Fords, the lock actuators on many Fords have thermal resistors that heat up and gradually reduce current flow to the actuator motor until they again cool off. My understanding was that this was to prevent motor burnout due to a child holding down the lock/unlock switch or continually cycling it for an extended period. These resistors begin to fail over time and the actuators become too weak to cycle the door locks due to the reduced current through the thermal resistor. The easy and free fix, is to remove this resistor and wrap it with foil and reinstall. I have done this many times on Fords (not while working at the dealership, of course there you get a shiny new expensive actuator). Does the Avalon use a similar resistor? My wife's driver door lock actuator is weak, so I installed one of of those chinese universal actuators, but it stripped out within a couple of months and I was wondering if anyone had repaired the factory actuator motor?

[ImDisaster]

Originally Posted by cbd1

I installed one of of those chinese universal actuators, but it stripped out within a couple of months and I was wondering if anyone had repaired the factory actuator motor?

Can't help you there except to say I've had nothing but bad luck with Chinese copied junk. The story I've heard is they will often copy stuff just by taking it apart and looking at, and measuring the parts. They don't have any drawings, or material specs and they don't know, or seem to care about the original coatings and finishes. This leads to premature failures from a score of reasons, poor surface finish, soft materials, lack of corrosion resistance, poor alignment, incorrect clearances, poor bearing materials, interference with existing components, prestresses..etc, etc.

There are people who will buy Chinese tools, like lathes, and then spend hours "blueprinting" them...like people used to do with old Detroit steel, when the quality was terrible. There are entire websites dedicated to some of these efforts.

I learned my lessons after a few too many instances of trying to save money by buying one of these cheap replacement parts or Harbor Freight tool. "Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me."

By the way, I was a Ford engineer for more than a few years....worked mostly on engines and transmissions. Got very frustrated with the company not taking the Japanese threat seriously enough...at least not seriously enough to change some of their bad quality practices and decided I had to get out, before I woke up one day to discover I'd become like the rest of them.

[Kirk]

Sorry this is coming back a little late, but what are the steps to replace the window motor (after you get the door panel off)? Sounds like cbd1 has it down.

Thanks

[GOT BOOST]

Originally Posted by robcam13

ive worked at a toyota dealer for over 5 years and havent seen many motor problems at all. we usually lube the window tracks and that fixes the problems

This is correct.

I have had my Avalon for over 13 years and no issues with the motors.

I just lube the window tracks regularly with lithium grease.

OP, your motor is more than likely burning out as it is trying to overcome a lot of friction in the windows. Dissasemble the tracks, check for corrosion, smooth operation of the window up and down, clean the rubber seals, make sure the windows are bolted at the bottom of the track and they are not catching.