Well I gave a dealer a $100 deposit on a 2001 Toyota Avalon XL today. KBB:$12,000, got it for $7,600. The car has 72,000 miles and is immaculate. The engine looks brand new, and you can tell the car was undercoated often because the was no sign of age underneath. The problem? I just read about the "sludge problem". I dont have maintenence records of the previous owner, but the car runs PERFECT and I figure if the owner took that much care or his car to keep it showroom perfect, then he probably changed the oil often. I plan on using Mobil 1 synthetic in it. My friend parents have a 98 Sienna. They used Mobil1 since the bought it new and now at 190,000 miles, nothing has ever broken. I have read that this sludge problem has only affected 1% or 2% or 1997-2001 vehicles, but it still worries me. Is this a safe choice to buy this car?????
Well I'm goin to pick the car up tommorow and I'm gonna test drive to see if the clunk is fixed(muffler rattling) before I make the deal. While on my test drive I'm gonna pop the hood and take off the oil cap. Shine a flashlight in, if that will even work or not, and maybe put a finger in and run in along the inside of the valve cover. If my finger comes out with a clump of sludge on it then I aint buyin it. However I dont think there will really be any. I've read the countless information on the whole 3.0liter V6 sludge issues, and Im not too worried. Only 3,400 of 3.5million were affected. Also I blame the owners. While the vehicle may have had a MINOR design flaw with the PCV, it was magnifyed enough to become a problem when people didnt change their oil often. Or went to Jiffy Lube and only got 3 quarts drained lol. My last car, a 2000 Dodge Neon, had no maintnence records either and wasn't in as good shape. I pulled the valve cover off once on that to change the spark plug tube seals and there was No sludge at all. Looked like a new engine. Buyin a used car is always a gamble, so you never can tell what will happen.
P.S. It seemed like most of the 1mz failures occured at 40 or 50k. Since this one has 72k i figure its taken care of. Plus it doesnt smoke AT ALL.
Removing the oil cap may not tell you much. There may be a baffle plate on the cover to prevent oil from splashing up. As such you may only be able to see the top of the plate.
As Kegunder states, the way to inspect for sludge is to remove a valve cover and take a look. Some very slight brown oil varnish build up is normal. Sludging is a serious build up congealed oil.
Sludging may be due in part to lack of oil changes, Toyota did have the extended change period though. And there is some though that the engine design allowed the oil to get hotter then it should and be more susceptible to sludging.
Toyota did have a program to fix sludged engines but not sure of the details.
Looking under the oil cap will tell you exactly bupkis, there is a baffle that makes it impossible to see. The only way to tell for sure is to remove the valve cover. It does sound like a hell of a deal, though, so how about this: ask to have one of the techs in the service dept pull the front valve cover so you can take a look. It only takes a few minutes for someone who knows what they're doing, and the deal you stand to make if the car is on the up-and-up sounds like it's worth paying the tech 20 or 30 bucks to get it done.
The sludge will be obvious if it is present, but removing the valve cover is the only practical way to check.
If it's NOT blowing blueish, whiteish smoke from the TP at cold start up, then I doubt you have a worry.
While the price is good, I've seen 2005's and 2006's in the low to mid teens......with low mileage. Which is good for those in the market for the best kept secret in the industry IMHO - the Yota Avy.
I drove from GA to NC today and got 32MPG Highway [with limited use of the AC]. My 1996 has 188K this week. I remained just at 65MPH or slightly under for most of the trip. Amazing what slightly slower driving speeds do for gas mileage.... oh and btw I use 87 Octane all the time now. With an occasional bottle of REDLINE SL1 FI cleaner in the tank.....
If it's NOT blowing blueish, whiteish smoke from the TP at cold start up, then I doubt you have a worry.
That's not an accurate piece of advice. Plenty of the 1MZ rebuilds I had to do because of sludge accumulation (numbering in the hundreds) didn't have any visual indication of oil consumption. Smoke on start up is an indication that the valve stem seals have started to leak, and damage from oil gelling can manifest itself in other ways that aren't obvious by looking at the tail pipe on startup. Spend 20 or 30 bucks, get the front valve cover off, and have a look.
Well, you seem to have your heart set on it, and I can understand why. It would be heartbreaking to see a great car like that with sludge issues... especially after you just bought it.
But, for future posters, I'll also give a bit of advice that I should have thought of yesterday. Sometimes, these cars can be really messed up by sloppy attempts at cleaning the sludge (i.e. wire brushing.) You can drain the oil and cut open the oil filter to see if there are particles present. If there are, its probably bad news. I'm no expert, but I'd imagine that would lead to quick engine failure due to wear.
Well I checked it out furthur and good news. No sludge! Bought it Friday. However it did have a clunk coming from the back and the dealer replaced the sway bar links but that only helped a little. During the week Im going to make an appoinment for him to replace the rear struts since that is what it appears to be. The warrenty covers suspension so it will be free. Plus I knew of it before I bought it and he said I could bring it back and he'd fix it for free. I also need to get the front wheels balanced. From like 62-72mph I have some bad vibration in the wheel. Other than that the car is perfect, and is in such good shape it could pass for brand new.
Problem with "removing a valve cover" on an 01 is you have to remove some things to just get the front one off- forget the rear one. A dealer wont let you do it on the lot-
I suspect the REAL problem with the sludging was the "extended" oil change schedules the manu recommended. Another factor-the Avalon was typically bought by "old folks" who drove very short/frequent trips as a rule (around town), then went with the extended service schedule. The oil often sat a LONG time in the pan and was rarely heated enough to drive off contaminants (short trips).
I have changed mine around every 3000 since new (52K now), and when I recently removed the valve covers to check valve clearances, the valvetrain was so clean you could eat off it. I go every 3K miles, or 6 months, whichever is first, due to very cold winters here I WONT leave even synthetic in the pan for over 6 months.
IF still time, have the dealer give you a 7 day return policy, in writing, if you have a PRO remove the valve covers and find sludge (they won't write it for you to do it). It will probably cost a few hundred, the back cover is a !#%^%&* to get off, lots of stuff to remove, but would be money very well spent.
If "clean", run a good synthetic, change every 3-4K, the engine, if it was taken care of before, should last forever. If it's "clean", pay the PRO to check the valves while the covers are off- "Due" at 90K, but the bulk of the $$$$$ is in the LABOR to get the covers off/on, minor to check once they are off. Wrenchy
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I have changed mine around every 3000 since new (52K now), and when I recently removed the valve covers to check valve clearances, the valvetrain was so clean you could eat off it. I go every 3K miles, or 6 months, whichever is first, due to very cold winters here I WONT leave even synthetic in the pan for over 6 months.
Just curious about your findings regards valve lash checkup? Were any in need of adjustment?
They were all in tolerance, balanced within .001 per pair/cylinder. I do believe this has a LOT to do with frequent oil-changes. My guess is at 90-100K I will have to recheck, and trade around the shims/buy a few new ones to get the same type match.
I was surprised- my '94 Accord needs the valves adjusted every single year, but a very different design engine.
I WOULD NOT recommend this procedure for inexperienced mechanics. Damned near the entire top of the engine has to come off- intake manifold, all electrical leads to the coil-packs, all the leads to the injectors, multiple vacuum lines, water bypass hoses. If you DONT know your way around an engine, you will NEVER get it back together right-
My guess is this is why they recommend 90K- it takes a lot of time to DO IT RIGHT, and would cost a fair amount if done at the dealer, or by a GOOD mechanic. If you get a mechanic to do it, beware- make sure they KNOW their way around this type engine, this is not a "fast hack" type job, and adjusating the shims takes a lot of time and finesse.
Also be VERY careful to perfectly seal the surfaces noted on the rear cover with RTV sealant. I still don't know why, but when I got it all together I had a leak at the back of the rear cover, had to "go in again" and reseal it. It sits at about a 30 degree angle downwards, so the oil pools inside at the seal and will leak like crazy if the RTV sealant is not set PERFECTLY, and the bolts are torqued perfectly. No problems now, but swear to God I've never had a valve-cover leak on me after install in 30+ years. I was PISSED.
The truth is I have owned a 1978 Toyota SR5, a 1986 Nissan PU, a 1992 Ford Ranger PU, a 1994 Honda Accord, a 2006 Nissan Xterra, and various other cars/trucks in my life.
I must admit I HATE working on the Avalons engine- it's really poorly laid out for repairs, difficult to work on, and the ignition wiring system is a JOKE (I think they dumped it after 2 years!). The suspension/brakes are alright, pretty straight forward. I have also had problems with the emission system and maybe now the tranney- I am not overly impressed with the car in regards to engineering, Honda blows Toyota away in this regard. Sorry, I love to drive the car, but it's not extremely well engineered.
I like the car, but if I look at another Toyota, and the engine bay is set up like this Avalon, Toyota can kiss my butt- I will buy a Nissan or Honda. I swear, this engine was DESIGNED to be very difficult to work on.
I can work on the 2006 Xterra 10X faster and easier and the Honda 20X faster and easier. I have worked on American V8/V6, Honda 4 and 6 cyl, and Nissan 4 and 6 cyl. I don't like the engineering on this car very much, it's the most difficult engine I have ever worked with. Wrenchy
They were all in tolerance, balanced within .001 per pair/cylinder. I do believe this has a LOT to do with frequent oil-changes. My guess is at 90-100K I will have to recheck, and trade around the shims/buy a few new ones to get the same type match.
I was surprised- my '94 Accord needs the valves adjusted every single year, but a very different design engine.
I WOULD NOT recommend this procedure for inexperienced mechanics. Damned near the entire top of the engine has to come off- intake manifold, all electrical leads to the coil-packs, all the leads to the injectors, multiple vacuum lines, water bypass hoses. If you DONT know your way around an engine, you will NEVER get it back together right-
My guess is this is why they recommend 90K- it takes a lot of time to DO IT RIGHT, and would cost a fair amount if done at the dealer, or by a GOOD mechanic. If you get a mechanic to do it, beware- make sure they KNOW their way around this type engine, this is not a "fast hack" type job, and adjusating the shims takes a lot of time and finesse.
Also be VERY careful to perfectly seal the surfaces noted on the rear cover with RTV sealant. I still don't know why, but when I got it all together I had a leak at the back of the rear cover, had to "go in again" and reseal it. It sits at about a 30 degree angle downwards, so the oil pools inside at the seal and will leak like crazy if the RTV sealant is not set PERFECTLY, and the bolts are torqued perfectly. No problems now, but swear to God I've never had a valve-cover leak on me after install in 30+ years. I was PISSED.
The truth is I have owned a 1978 Toyota SR5, a 1986 Nissan PU, a 1992 Ford Ranger PU, a 1994 Honda Accord, a 2006 Nissan Xterra, and various other cars/trucks in my life.
I must admit I HATE working on the Avalons engine- it's really poorly laid out for repairs, difficult to work on, and the ignition wiring system is a JOKE (I think they dumped it after 2 years!). The suspension/brakes are alright, pretty straight forward. I have also had problems with the emission system and maybe now the tranney- I am not overly impressed with the car in regards to engineering, Honda blows Toyota away in this regard. Sorry, I love to drive the car, but it's not extremely well engineered.
I like the car, but if I look at another Toyota, and the engine bay is set up like this Avalon, Toyota can kiss my butt- I will buy a Nissan or Honda. I swear, this engine was DESIGNED to be very difficult to work on.
I can work on the 2006 Xterra 10X faster and easier and the Honda 20X faster and easier. I have worked on American V8/V6, Honda 4 and 6 cyl, and Nissan 4 and 6 cyl. I don't like the engineering on this car very much, it's the most difficult engine I have ever worked with. Wrenchy
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-- Get him, boy....
oh and btw I use 87 Octane all the time now. With an occasional bottle of REDLINE SL1 FI cleaner in the tank.....
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