New forum member intro and question

[Goofaroo]

Hi all,

I'm pleased to find an Avalon forum that is reasonably active. I've had mine for about a year. I sold my 2002 Tacoma Xtra cab SR5 4X4 4cyl. 5spd that I purchased new and drove for 8 years and 115K miles. Fantastic truck but I was tired of driving a truck. I sold it for $10,000. My wife was tired of driving her 2005 Subaru Outback 2.5i that I bought new because she was tired of the manual transmission. It only had 52K on it so I took it for myself. I then took the $10,000 from the Tacoma and went looking for a car for her.

I wanted a Lexus GS300 but I just couldn't find the right one (white only) with under or around 100K miles. I told the guy at the Lexus dealership to call me if he found my GS300 or a super nice (white) Avalon. Two weeks later he called with the 2002 Avalon XLS and I went and bought it for $10,600. It is white (obviously) with tan interior and had only 62K miles.

It now has about 74K on it and the only maintenance I have done is changed the brake fluid and routine oil changes. It came with Bridgestone Turanzas with very few miles and they have been wearing very evenly.

I don't happen to be a fan of front wheel drive cars so the Avalon was really just a sell-out decision that I made because it had a lot of room and my wife was going to be driving anyway. I figured it would be ultra reliable, safe, and roomy for my wife to haul everyone around in. Besides that I just didn't really have any interest in it.

It has taken about a year and this car is really starting to grow on me. I find it to be one of the easiest and most relaxing cars to drive across town that I have ever owned. You just tend to slow down and not get in a hurry when you drive this car. I find myself taking it on errands around town instead of my wagon or BMW Z3. It is fantastic when we go out on the town with another couple and everybody has a roomy and comfortable seat. I joke to my wife that we finally bought a car made for adults.

I'm about to do a brake job with new rotors and organic pads so I thought I would address some of my complaints about the suspension while I'm at it. It has always had a thump in the front and rear suspension. Nothing obnoxious but more than I would expect on such a low mileage car. The front end also has a tendency to chatter and get sloppy over rough surfaces. I know that this thing is never going to handle like a sports car but it seems to me like it hasn't held up well. I'm guessing that they put some really soft rubber bushings and strut mounts in it from the factory to give it test drive appeal but they haven't held up as well as firmer rubber would have. Also it is very softly sprung and has very limited sway control. All this adds up to being great for around town but I don't like driving it at highway speeds. Not that it feels unsafe or anything but it just isn't fun or confidence inspiring. It's a shame because it is so comfortable it would be a great road car if it handled just a little bit better. The motor has more than enough power and the transmission is smooth and nicely spaced.

Here's my thoughts and I'd love to hear from others who have experimented with the handling on their Avalon. I'm thinking about first replacing the rear control arm busings with polyurethane bushings and replacing the front sway bar bushings with polyurethane. I'm thinking that they could be one of the primary sources of noise and sloppy action.

Next I'd like to upgrade to some nice gas struts and new mounts. That will surely fix all the suspension noise and the handling should improve as well. If I have to, I'll replace the front control arm bushings as well. I haven't looked into aftermarket sources for spring and strut upgrades but I'm sure there are a few options. I'd love to hear what anyone else has done to improve the handling. I'd especially like to hear about any sway bar upgrades that have been done.

Whether I can get this car handling a bit better or not, it will continue to be in my garage for a long time. My wife absolutely loves it and I don't even have to think about it breaking down on her. It has been great to have around and I think it's one of the best automotive purchases I've ever made both from a practical perspective and in enjoyment. If I could improve the handling and the ride quality just a little bit it would make this car even more enjoyable.

Cheers,
Andrew

[TrailDust]

to Toyota Nation, Andrew! If I could I'd offer some insight into the suspension system, but that area is not my strong suit so I'll leave it up to others to chime in.

[KoG506]

Sorry to say that i have no info for your handling improvement. I am still on factory struts(very noisy going over bumps) @ 130K Mileage. I need to replace them but I don't have the money yet. but if you have any other questions, I might be able to help out.

[Goofaroo]

Thanks for the input. When I start digging into this thing I'll be sure and post what changes I make and what the results are. I just want the ride quality and handling to be more appropriate for a car of this caliber. It's a shame to hear a clunk from the suspension and a shimmy from the front end in an otherwise fantastic car.

[buchaja]

Hi Adrew, welcome to the forum.

You'll find in your research on here that I have been pleased with my new KYB struts and mounts. They're definitely stiffer than the oem's they replaced, and I might have complained slightly in other posts about this, but I think they are starting to settle down and soften a little after 4k miles or so. They most certainly improved the handling of the car.

I can't speak to bushings, but I think your headed in the right direction. I will probably replace mine with poly sometime.

Congrats on the new car. Glad you found what you were looking for.

[pmesfun]

The front end sloppiness is very common in Avalon. Mine is so bad its unsafe.

I would get KYB Excel-G struts, basically OEM but a little firmer. The front strut mount on these cars fail prematurely, Toyota has a revised mount now. If not Toyota, get Moog, STAY AWAY from KYB strut mounts, not made in Japan like their struts. The shop that did my front strut used them and they sound terrible. I used Moog rear strut mounts and they are silent. Another option is Monroe Quick Struts, $150 each and come with all new parts, all you have to do is swap with the old assembly.
Popular aftermarket strut and spring combos are Tokico Struts with Tein/H&R/Eibach/Vogtland lowering springs, but I'm not sure if the ride would be as comfortable.

On the control arm bushings, I wanted to replace all rubber with poly but my Auto Tech instructor said it is not worth the extra time and effort to do so. Special drivers and presses are needed to do the front. I highly doubt you control arms are bad. I replaced the FR with a Toyota part and the noise was still there, a waste of $150.

I replaced all sway bar bushings with poly and they helped a little. Check sway bar links for play and rips in the boots. A good aftermarket replacement is Deeza and is very cheap. If there is steering looseness check the tie-rods.

For bigger rear sway bars, TRD is most popular but near impossible to find one. Whiteline and UR makes them as well.

[BiXLL]

I am planning on going the Monroe Quick Strut myself. My 2002 has 122,000 on it, and what I have noticed more then the struts being a problem is what I believe is weak spring action. Even with just 2 adults in the rear seat I have major rear end sag.

[ChiTDI]

I think your assessment of what to do for the front is spot on. Poly urethane or rubber is debatable, I went with rubber and am happy.
KYB front struts, bearings and mounts at 139k with new sway bar links and bushings, control arm bushings and ball joints really tightened up my front end. Feels like new.
Rear struts and sway bar bushings were done 5 years ago at around 80k.
Brakes are very straightforward. I've found the best combo for me are Bendix CT-3 pads and standard solid rotors. (Who is on sale?) Brembo and Raybestos were great. I cut the fronts once, then replace them next time. Rears are solid and seem to last longer. I just replace them with the pads. They're cheap to buy.
You do have a fuel filter in the engine bay underneath the master cylinder.
The PCV valve and hose is something you need to keep an eye on. These engines were "redesigned" at one time and you might have a known Toyota sludger. Not all bad if that is the case. Change the oil regularly and let it drain for a long time, keep the PCV valve clean and operating well. I'd use synthetic, but that's your call.
When you change the ATF, you might only get two quarts. Some models have a separate differential drain plug even though the fill is from the same source. Open both plugs and you'll get a little less than four quarts, and that's your refill amount.
I also change the power steering fluid with synthetic ATF every other oil change using a turkey baster. Stays clean.
I find the car easy to work on and very responsive to good care.
Like you, I learned to enjoy driving it since it wasn't my first choice.
Enjoy and welcome to TN.

[robtpren]

Andrew-

Welcome to the Avalon forum! I have a 2000 XL also in white which has been really great to my wife and I. It is her baby and recently we were planning on giving it to my son since his old high school car was just about done. She could not bear to part with it, so I ended giving him my caravan and I bought a new camry. The Avalon has over 140,000 miles and still runs like I just drove it off the lot.
I am sure that once you get yours repaired you will enjoy it as much as I.

Bob

2000 Avalon XL
2011 Camry LE

[Goofaroo]

I think your assessment of what to do for the front is spot on. Poly urethane or rubber is debatable, I went with rubber and am happy.
KYB front struts, bearings and mounts at 139k with new sway bar links and bushings, control arm bushings and ball joints really tightened up my front end. Feels like new.
Rear struts and sway bar bushings were done 5 years ago at around 80k.
Brakes are very straightforward. I've found the best combo for me are Bendix CT-3 pads and standard solid rotors. (Who is on sale?) Brembo and Raybestos were great. I cut the fronts once, then replace them next time. Rears are solid and seem to last longer. I just replace them with the pads. They're cheap to buy.
You do have a fuel filter in the engine bay underneath the master cylinder.
The PCV valve and hose is something you need to keep an eye on. These engines were "redesigned" at one time and you might have a known Toyota sludger. Not all bad if that is the case. Change the oil regularly and let it drain for a long time, keep the PCV valve clean and operating well. I'd use synthetic, but that's your call.
When you change the ATF, you might only get two quarts. Some models have a separate differential drain plug even though the fill is from the same source. Open both plugs and you'll get a little less than four quarts, and that's your refill amount.
I also change the power steering fluid with synthetic ATF every other oil change using a turkey baster. Stays clean.
I find the car easy to work on and very responsive to good care.
Like you, I learned to enjoy driving it since it wasn't my first choice.
Enjoy and welcome to TN.

You've answered a few questions for me before I even asked them.I've been planning to address everything you mentioned plus the belts, spark plugs, and possibly a coolant flush.

As for the ATF, I am planning to start a routine of changing it fairly frequently (like every 20K) and just call it good at that. I have changed my share of tranny filters and pan gaskets only to find that they were already clean so I'm just going to leave the factory pan gasket alone and do frequent fluid changes. From what I understand these transmissions are pretty damned reliable.

I'll check the PCV and I already do 3000 mile oil changes with a Toyota filter and full synthetic. By the way, oil has gotten a lot more expensive so I'm always looking for a deal. I buy only two things at Wal-Mart - oil and pool chemicals. They have by far the best price on both. I use their house brand oil (Super Tech) and pay about $18 for a 5qt jug.

As for the power steering, I've pulled the fluid from the reservoir once and I need to start adding that to my oil change routine on all of my cars. I occasionally do the same thing with the brake fluid. I don't believe that it is a substitute for a full brake fluid change and bleeding but it does help keep the fluid fresh between changes.

I hadn't even thought about the fuel filter so I went out to the garage to take a look at it but I don't see a fuel filter under my master cylinder or anywhere else under the hood. Toyota engineers seem to have mastered the art of hiding giant oversized fuel filters in places that are accessible only by contortionists with special tools and the patience of Job.
I went to the Toyota dealer to buy a fuel filter for my Tacoma pickup one day just so I could see what it looked like so I could find it on my truck and replace it. The parts guy brought it up to the counter but he suggested that I never take the old one out. Another guy behind the counter chimed in and said that he agreed completely and to just forget that it had a filter, it would never fail, and the fittings would never leak. They followed me out to my truck and showed me where it was hiding. It was very neatly buried under the intake manifold where it was out of sight and nearly impossible to reach. I probably could have changed it but I decided to follow their advice and just leave the old one in place.


I just bought new rotors and organic pads for the front and rear for $195 including tax from NAPA.

As for the struts, I'm still pondering what to do but I like the idea of using KYB. Do they offer a complete strut setup like the Monroe Quickstrut? I want to replace the springs and mounts as well so I like the idea of a pre-assembled solution. I am going to replace the sway bar bushings with poly even though a closer inspection reveals minimal wear. I think that my suspension noise and problems are primarily coming from the strut mounts. All of the bushings seem pretty tight but I think I will replace the rear control arm bushes with poly for now and leave the front control arms alone until all else has failed.

I'm really hoping to get this thing handling and riding a lot better than it does now and then get many years of trouble free service out of it. Any feedback on the performance of the KYB struts would be great.

[pmesfun]

Fuel filter is between the airbox and strut mount, look down and you will see it.

KYB is OEM, it was stamped on my original struts. Same with the Quest.
No complete assembly from KYB, at least for the Avalon.

You will need to drop the rear subframe to get the control arms out, since Toyota thought it would be genius to put the bolt side next against the gas tank.

I am 99% sure the clunking is from the strut mounts.

[Goofaroo]

KYB is OEM, it was stamped on my original struts. Same with the Quest.
No complete assembly from KYB, at least for the Avalon.

You will need to drop the rear subframe to get the control arms out, since Toyota thought it would be genius to put the bolt side next against the gas tank.

I am 99% sure the clunking is from the strut mounts. __________________

I think I'm headed the KYB strut w/Moog mounts direction. I take it you have this combination and it has worked well. I just don't trust the Monroes even though I like the idea of an all-in-one solution but the low price and poor reviews make me leery. With only 74K on this car I'm betting that my old springs would be better than the ones on the Monroes.

What do I need to order to have everything in hand before I start? I'm guessing I need the struts and the mounts and I can just transfer everything else over from the old struts. Does that sound correct?

[pmesfun]

Yeah, I installed rear KYB struts and Moog mounts earlier this year. Its been about 3k miles and no problems. I have to drive on a construction road almost everyday with big potholes and nothing by a nice solid thump, which I can barely hear. The front KYB mounts sound like metal to metal and the steering is all over the place since the strut is moving so much because of the lack of cushion.

The rear struts were blown for almost a year, couple months before I replaced them I had to carry 4 passengers in the back and also a trunk full of luggage. I thought this would destroy the spring as well but it did not. Back to original ride height, with a little firmer ride than the original, which I like. Keep in mind the rear struts take longer to settle in, the ride is extremely stiff in the rear at first. The front settle quickly because of all the extra weight.

The only thing to replace besides struts and mounts, is the two rubber parts. The coil spring insulator, which sits between the spring and the bottom of the strut plate, and there is a strut bumper that is at the bottom of the strut shaft/rod. I replaced them on my 99, because they were making noises from all the damage. I just did the front struts on the quest, and transferred the original rubber parts to the new struts, they were in good condition. No noises, rides like new.

There is also the strut bellows, the bellows are part of the rear mounts, so you will get new ones, but the fronts are separate. You can reuse it of course, just protects the shaft from debris and such.

I would reuse the rubber parts if they are good. If not, the prices add up once you start getting all the little things.

I got the struts and mounts from Amazon, and the rubbers from my local dealer.

If you need pn#s let me know.

[Goofaroo]

You are certainly a wealth of information. I am hoping to only do this once so I will be using new rubber for the insulators and the bumpers. Do you have a suggestion for which brand to use for those rubber bits? I unforunately don't have the luxury of going to a parts store and looking at all of the options before I buy them.

As for the control arm bushings, I will just wait on those and hopefully the struts will fix the noise and the handling problems. I will probably go ahead and pop in some new poly sway bar bushings and inspect the end links. If the struts don't improve the handling to an acceptable level I will probably try a more substantial rear sway bar next. I put a little bit thicker one on my Subaru Outback wagon and the overall handling was dramatically improved while the ride quality remained unchanged.

The main thing I'm hoping to cure on the Avalon is the skittish front end. Would you say that the front end on yours tracks straighter with the new struts and mounts?

[Goofaroo]

I just ordered all the parts from Parts Geek.

KYB struts

Moog strut mounts w/bearings, spring insulators, and sway bar bushings.

Total including shipping was $674.62. The front strut mounts were the most expensive items at $86.98 for the RH and $83.98 for the LH.

Rear strut mounts were $68.98 each.

Front struts were $73.98 each and rears were $57.98 each.

Rear insulators were $15.98 each and fronts were $13.98 each

Throw in about $25 worth of sway bar bushings and $17.95 for shipping and it's $674.62

This will be money well spent if it corrects the shortcomings of the current suspension. I'm hoping it works great and gives me many miles of happy motoring. I'll try to post some pics showing the installation process in case anyone is interested and I'll give a full report on the results when I get finished. Thanks for all the input.