losing power after ignition in the morning -- occasionally

[moonroof]

This is on my Avalon 2000. I have experienced this around three times now in the last month or so. It usually does like this:
1. Start the car in the morning.
2. The engine dies.
3. Start again, it dies again.
4. Start again, but this time rev it up using the accelerator.
5. No problem after that. Continue on with the day.

This morning, however, it went like this:
1. Started the car and drove nearby to a water hose and washed the car.
2. Started after the wash, the engine started but died.
3. Had to use the accelerator to keep it from dying.
4. Car lost power near a traffic light as I slowed. Did the start-accelerator routine again.
5. Continued on with my day, no problem.

This always happened in the morning when starting the first time.

So, can somebody give me some idea what is going on here? Otherwise, the car has no problem whatsoever.

Thanks.

[KoG506]

Originally Posted by moonroof

This is on my Avalon 2000. I have experienced this around three times now in the last month or so. It usually does like this:
1. Start the car in the morning.
2. The engine dies.
3. Start again, it dies again.
4. Start again, but this time rev it up using the accelerator.
5. No problem after that. Continue on with the day.

This morning, however, it went like this:
1. Started the car and drove nearby to a water hose and washed the car.
2. Started after the wash, the engine started but died.
3. Had to use the accelerator to keep it from dying.
4. Car lost power near a traffic light as I slowed. Did the start-accelerator routine again.
5. Continued on with my day, no problem.

This always happened in the morning when starting the first time.

So, can somebody give me some idea what is going on here? Otherwise, the car has no problem whatsoever.

Thanks.

some suggestions:

is your air filter clean? maybe your throttle body is dirty,it get stuck? Alternator dying? battery not charging? get these check/replace see if it helps. goodluck

[BiXLL]

sounds like your fuel pump may not be holding pressure?

[moonroof]

Originally Posted by KoG506

some suggestions:

is your air filter clean? maybe your throttle body is dirty,it get stuck? Alternator dying? battery not charging? get these check/replace see if it helps. goodluck

The filter appears to be clean.

I checked the battery. With headlights off, it reads 12.45 V. With headlights on, it reads 12.03 V. With the engine running, it reads 14.03 V.

So, with these readings, does it sound like the alternate is okay?

Also, is the drop of battery voltage under headlights load indicative of anything bad?

Not sure how to check the throttle passage.

Thanks.

[ChiTDI]

Those symptoms could be electrical or fuel. They were resolved in my situation with R&R of the Air Idle Control Motor (fuel injection part). These can be cleaned on the fuel half, but mine failed on the electrical side and needed to be replaced.
Let us know what was the resolution.
I'd start with fuel pressure check as someone else mentioned. Gives you a route to pursue the problem.

[moonroof]

Originally Posted by ChiTDI

Those symptoms could be electrical or fuel. They were resolved in my situation with R&R of the Air Idle Control Motor (fuel injection part). These can be cleaned on the fuel half, but mine failed on the electrical side and needed to be replaced.
Let us know what was the resolution.
I'd start with fuel pressure check as someone else mentioned. Gives you a route to pursue the problem.

um ... er .. R&R? Remove and replace?

Where is the Air Idle Control Motor located in the Avalon?

How does one check the fuel pressure? Is it a DIY or do I have to go to a garage or something? And how much should that cost?

Thanks.

[ChiTDI]

Can't help you with the cost. Regional variances. Independent vs. Dealer. Wide range.
R&R -remove and replace yes.
Fuel pressure check is done with expensive and sensitive gauges hooked into the fuel system. Schroeder valve connection, gauge is fitted into the system and reads the psi of the fuel. Standard work for a shop, not heart surgery at all. Helps them track down at what part of the sealed system the pressure weakens or leaks. (pump, regulator, injector,...) DIY, yes with the right tools and maybe someone with you that has done it before.
The AIC is located near the intake but access is underneath the throttle body so you may have to remove some plumbing.
Do the simple stuff first, and then you can decide what you want the shop/dealer to do.

[moonroof]

Thanks for the explanations.

I was again checking the voltages now in the morning:
1. Battery with no load: 12.65 V
2. Battery with load (headlights, heaters, seat heaters, etc.): 11.68 V
3. Minimum voltage seen during starting (it is a DMM): 10.6 V
4. After starting, voltage was varying something around 14.0x to 14.1x V.

Car started without any problems and remained idling as it usually does normally.

What I meant by cost was whether the pressure test itself should cost much .... sorry, I wasn't clear.

Regards.

[moonroof]

Another probably basic question.

I had my battery and alternator checked at advanced auto parts store here. They are all fine. So that leaves looking at the fuel side. I was just reading about fuel injector and related stuff. Based on the advise given above, would it be worthwhile to have a "fuel system cleaning service" performed on the car? More specifically, would that service include all the factors that have been mentioned here?

Thanks.

[ChiTDI]

Dunno and no.
Whether the service? Your call, it can be cleaned easily. Spray (correct stuff) and a large toothbrush or large soft bristled something that won't fall in!
A fuel system test would not include the cleaning and the cleaner.
Cost should not be much of an issue. They do it all the time. (Good shops)
If they do the repair, the shop often eats the diagnosis fee.

[moonroof]

If I could ask another basic question. er ... how does one go about cleaning it exactly? I am willing do the stuff myself (in fact, I would love to learn since I have not done much car mechs much), and if I can find a how-to to accomplish this, it would be great.



Thanks and regards.

[ChiTDI]

If this is new to you, hit up the search (and search the camry forums, there's more stuff) for throttle plate cleaning. There's videos, youtube presentations and diagrams/schematics that will do a much better job of 'splainin than my typing. Words seem to cause as much confusion as the mechanical symptoms.
Go slow and see if you can hook up with someone knowledgeable and watch how stuff is done. I see it done once, I can do it. I read the manuals or a set of directions and its a full day of head scratching.

[moonroof]

Got it.

I too can gain a lot by looking at someone do the stuff. I am new to this area (relocated recently) and thus don't have the luxury of knowing somebody who can show an example.

But I will do the search and take it up from there. If it does not require any specialized tools, I will be all for it!

Another thing. I talked to a garage mechanic a short while ago and described the occasional engine dying problem in the morning. He said that most likely it is the idle air controller on its way out. He predicted that if that is the case, the problem should worsen with time.

Regards.

[moonroof]

Originally Posted by ChiTDI

If this is new to you, hit up the search (and search the camry forums, there's more stuff) for throttle plate cleaning. There's videos, youtube presentations and diagrams/schematics that will do a much better job of 'splainin than my typing.

Saw quite nice video showing the problem, the cleaning of the throttle valve and its affect:

You Tube

You Tube

Here is another one which, as far as I can tell, actually has an Avalon:

You Tube

You Tube

If I am correct, then Avalon has 2 throttles.

Thanks for pointing me to the right direction. I plan to try this out this coming weekend, or the on after. In any case, I will report back the results.

[moonroof]

Originally Posted by ChiTDI

If this is new to you, hit up the search (and search the camry forums, there's more stuff) for throttle plate cleaning.

I got some time today and did the throttle plate cleaning. There was blank gunk right inside the places, but the throttle intake in front of the tubes was quite clean.

What I did was:
1. Opened the hood.
2. Removed the two hoses that go from a black box to the two throttle intakes.
3. Cleaned the intakes around the plates.
4. Put the hoses back.

I used a throttle cleaner spray and a toothbrush to clean the black soot and gunk on the intake tube right behind the plates.

After the cleaning, now the car idle a bit low, around 400 rpm, instead of the normal of around 750 rpm. It looks like once I push the gas pedal and increase the rpm, it comes to the usual normal idling value of around 750. Can somebody explain this?

Other than that, it is a bit too early to say if this helped in the occasional problem (I had that again, once, a couple of days ago).

Thanks.