I have read the various threads on the 12-speaker JBL premium sound system. I noticed that what usually happens is a great deal of band width is wasted by owners saying they like the system or they don't like the system. That is not why I am starting this thread. It is not important to me whether you like or do not like your stereo. What I want to know is if anyone has made modifications and improvements.
I am not a hardcore audiophile by any means, but I like really good sounding audio. I realize good sounding music becomes a very subjective opinion. The first car I ever had with what I would consider good sounding audio reproduction was my 2000 Avalon Ltd with the JBL system. I was 90% pleased with it. I actually think the system sounded better than what is in the 2005 model, and I assume is the same for '06 and '07.
I also own a 2002 4Runner Ltd and am a member of the YotaTech 4Runner forum. A group of us who own Gen 3 4R's did not like the crappy sound systems in our trucks. Granted the 4R premium systems were nothing special and the 6 speakers provided by the factory were the typical paper element type. So, we started exploring ways to make our systems better. The bottom line for me is that I now have the best sound system I have ever heard in my 4R --- and I am not the only one who thinks so. I did it without auxiliary amps, flashing lights and all the expensive doodads audiophiles like to add to competitive high amp systems.
When I got my '05 Avalon Limited I was excited about it --- 12 speakers, XM and surround sound! Wow!
But now I am very disappointed with the system. The surround sound is a joke as it throws the speakers 180 degrees out of phase and makes vocals sound weak and muddy, not fuller and richer which I find odd. The bass (subwoofer) is also odd because it is too strong but not strong enough. I know that makes no sense but I cannot describe it any other way. Adding a subwoofer should add overall richness throughout the cabin and should not sound like a hollow beating drum in the back seat. The rear midrange speakers are practically non existent. I know they are suppose to just fill-in and I know the main sound is suppose to come only from the front, but the sensation I get is that there is only the sound from the front and that drum thumping in the rear. When I play music that has a lot of separation and synthesizer rolling from left to right the transition is poor to say the least. And what about those other five speakers? There are two small filler speakers in the rear doors, two in the rear deck (L&R) and one so-called center channel speaker in the front dash. They should add to the fullness and body, but I don't feel they do anything.
I have played with the adjustments quite a bit, such that I can without an equalizer or crossover settings, keeping in mind that the ideal setting should be as close to flat as possible. I have to turn the base way down and the fade to +2. Speaking of adjusting sound fade; it should sound as if the sound is coming from the front sound stage, so when adjusting start full to the rear and turn it forward just to the point where you no longer hear the sound coming from the rear. When I make that adjustment the front sound ends up sounding washed out and anemic. I realize any adjustment depends on your sitting position too.
After saying all of this I am wondering as follows:
1) Has anyone explored installing an aftermarket head unit with an internal Mosfet amp, Bass Engine and at least 20 amps RMS per channel?
2) Has anyone installed a separate self-powered subwoofer in the trunk or to replace the OE speaker?
3) Has anyone replaced the speakers with high efficiency speakers like the Infinity Reference series speakers?
4) Has anyone installed an external amp and did that help?
My 4Runner has an Alpine top of the line head unit, Infinity Reference series speakers throughout including oversized midrange replacement speakers in the rear doors, and two 200W Infinity Baselink 10” subwoofers in the cargo area. When I play my system it sounds as though I am right in the middle of the music with the main trust coming from the front as I mentioned before. I can only imagine what a really good system would sound like in Avalon. I have got to do it.
Please don’t come back and tell me I am full of bull and deaf. I already know that.
Your knowledge may sound foolish to some though. But you’re not full of b.s. I haven’t done what you’re asking but based on my reading of previous posts, the premium sound on the ’08 is way better than in previous packages. The best, and I mean best sound is achieved using an external source, like an ipod, through the Auxiliary Input jack. My ipod songs are all burned at 320kbps and 96 KHz sampling frequency.
I know that the “good” in good sound is very subjective. My girlfriend tells me she doesn’t notice the difference between her ipod and my solid state, vacuum tubes McIntosh rack system. Isn’t that something?
(Big Snip)
My girlfriend tells me she doesn’t notice the difference between her ipod and my solid state, vacuum tubes McIntosh rack system. Isn’t that something?
Oh my goodness! You have a McIntosh tube amp and pre-amp system. That is so primo old school. You are a lucky man. I was so upset when I had to bury my old stereo system I got in Nam. I now have a NAD system, but I am not sure what is going on with that company lately. It is also a British mfg. I am 61 and the whole ipod thing is too much for me right now. I will stick with CD’s until they stop making them --- which could be next month the way technology is advancing.
What makes the ’08 system better than the earlier models?
Different head unit?
Different speakers?
More power?
All of the above?
If the head unit is much better and that is the only change then I would think the swap would be easy. I will have to check with JBL when I get a chance. I wonder if there is any way to get the specs for both to compare.
See my signature for my setup. In my opinion it's as good as I want sound to be in a vehicle.
__________________
2006 Avalon Touring Edition
Two D612D4's run off a D61000.1 w/ a 1.2 farad cap, in custom fiberglass sealed enclosures.
Soon to come: Tinted windows. K&N intake kit. High-flow exhaust. And a set of 20's (maybe 18's). http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2155533
osidepunker ...
I looked at your stuff when I was going through all of this. I wish I knew how to make custom molded fiberglass enclosures. Very nice.
You say that it was complicated to make a connection that gives you clean sound and you said you left everything else alone. Does that mean you think the speakers are high quality and all that was lacking was the big subwoofers?
I am not being a wise ass when I ask; does good sound to you mean earth shaking trunk rattling sound? Or would you say with the addition of the subs your system rounded out? See, I found the subs did nothing for me until I upgraded to a better head unit and speakers. Actually, I did one thing at a time so I can say the speakers made an improvement, the subs were nice but until I added the Alpine head unit I just could not get the depth and breadth of the sound I wanted. Now I hear everything. I do not turn my gain up beyond half, and I know that does not mean really mean anything and I control the cut with the crossover adjustments in my head unit. I have tried all kinds of settings fooling around including multiple EQ settings and time/distance delays, but now that I have everything nice it actually sounds great with all ranges set to 'flat', and the proper crossovers for the sub and other speaker frequency ranges. I am talking about my 4Runner installation of course.
I'd love to know how you were able to get that clean signal to connect your subs.
I'd love to know how you were able to get that clean signal to connect your subs.
-Peter
ditto
I think the factory amp has a sub-sonic filter on it or the sub itself just plain sucks.
It's response does not seem to extend below 40-50 hz.
I was thinking about replacing the sub with a higher quality free-air sub.
However, I think the factory sub is running at an unusual 8 ohms, so I'd have to look around to see who is making 8 ohm free air subs...
Right now my wife is happy with the stereo but to me it's below par for a "premium" sound system option.
I love the way our wives tend to have a headlock on our creativity. I guess if it were not for the female voice of reason we'd be broke --- but we'd be bumpin'
Going back to my post #17, I’ve played CDs on the '08 JBL system but the sound is not as satisfying (you know, like rocking the 'hood) as when playing the same CDs thru the auxiliary jack input (ipod connection). This auxiliary jack does improve the sound tremendously; high, mid and low are very distinctive and well blended. The radio control has an adjustment for the mid frequency, which I find very handy when using the ipod. Surround sound through all speakers is good as long as one keep in mind that the original source is two-channel only. I give an A++ for the audio as long as is being processed through the auxiliary jack input; a B+ through any other source. What I can't explain is why the sound has more "fidelity", including authority, when using the auxiliary jack, since the material going through there has been compressed further.
About the McIntosh: these guys haven’t stopped producing tube amps. I bought my last component, brand new, in 1999. Pre-amp, amp, audio processor (7-channel), signal control and speakers.
Here are the instructions that I wrote for the guys on Sounddomain:
(I'm assuming that you have the JBL Synthesis, if not then I don't think this applies): Get yourself a high quality line level converter (not a $30 unit and don't use the one that is in your sub amp). You'll need one with four channels and it has to be adjustable. The reason is that you’re going to combine the factory sub signal and the front L/R signal. This will send a complete and full frequency spectrum to your sub amp. You'll need a line level converter that is adjustable because you'll be sending over 100 watts to it and you'll need to turn it down. Plus you'll have to play with it and turn down the sub signal a little more than the front L/R signal. Use an o-scope and a test cd and adjust each channel until you get a flat freq response. Then use a monoblock amp and combine all signals. Adjust the amp so that the freq is cut off where you desire. Mine is cutoff with a 12db slope at 150hz because the Diamond Audio subs that I use have a natural high freq roll off. Trust me on this! The L/R channels have the sub freqs rolled off and the sub channel has the upper freqs rolled off. Either one by themselves will sound like shit. If you need more help, you can call me and we can talk about it, it’s probably easier to explain over the phone any way.
I am very pleased with how the JBL Synthesis was put together. The only thing I found lacking, obviously, was the bass. I like clean, crisp, lows with fast Transient Response. Sealed .88 cubic foot enclosures with poly fill are perfect for me. I went with a Kilowatt so that I could run the amp below clipping. It's sounds very nice and full, all the way down to 10hz. I have a gain adjustment on my dash if I want to turn it up. It does get VERY loud. For the most part though I run the whole system as flat as possible.
BTW, the factory "amp" is not really just an amp. It accepts a digital signal from the HU, processes it, and then sends it out to the speakers. In effect, its a Digital Processor/Amp. Go here and read about the Synthesis System: http://www.toyotajbl.com/
__________________
2006 Avalon Touring Edition
Two D612D4's run off a D61000.1 w/ a 1.2 farad cap, in custom fiberglass sealed enclosures.
Soon to come: Tinted windows. K&N intake kit. High-flow exhaust. And a set of 20's (maybe 18's). http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2155533
Here are the instructions that I wrote for the guys on Sounddomain:
.....Get yourself a high quality line level converter ... with four channels and it has to be adjustable ... combine the factory sub signal and the front L/R signal. This will send a complete and full frequency spectrum to your sub amp. You'll need a line level converter that is adjustable because you'll be sending over 100 watts to it and you'll need to turn it down ... you'll have to play with it and turn down the sub signal a little more than the front L/R signal. Use an o-scope and a test cd and adjust each channel until you get a flat freq response ... use a monoblock amp and combine all signals. Adjust the amp so that the freq is cut off where you desire. Mine is cutoff with a 12db slope at 150hz because the Diamond Audio subs that I use have a natural high freq roll off ... The L/R channels have the sub freqs rolled off and the sub channel has the upper freqs rolled off ... the factory "amp" is not really just an amp. It accepts a digital signal from the HU, processes it, and then sends it out to the speakers. In effect, its a Digital Processor/Amp ....
I really admire people who are multilingual.
Now, what the heck was all that???
You are so over my head on this, and I would imagine on a thousand other things. I'll tell you what. I'll pack tonight and head out tomorrow for your place and you can help me. I should be there in about a week.
Seriously, I can't do all of that; I'd have to be an electrical engineer. And I guess it is not as simple as just replacing the speakers? You obviously think the speakers are fine, good quality and well matched to the system. If I am understanding anything you are saying, the needed adjustment is coupling and balancing a sub to the front speakers.
Now, what the heck was all that???
You are so over my head on this, and I would imagine on a thousand other things. I'll tell you what. I'll pack tonight and head out tomorrow for your place and you can help me. I should be there in about a week.
Seriously, I can't do all of that; I'd have to be an electrical engineer. And I guess it is not as simple as just replacing the speakers? You obviously think the speakers are fine, good quality and well matched to the system. If I am understanding anything you are saying, the needed adjustment is coupling and balancing a sub to the front speakers.
- Peter
Sorry, didn't mean to be so technical. I wrote that for Sounddomain, so I had to be technical. If you were to take my post to a shop, they would be able to interpret it properly.
After I bought the car and evaluated the stereo, I came to the conclusion that all I needed to do was add a sub. So I removed the factory sub and added real subs, everything else is factory. At first I just hooked up the stock sub wires to my new system. It sounded horrible. I then did some testing and research and came to the above conclusions.
Just get some good subs and a monoblock amp and install everything like you normally would. However, have a shop pull a signal from the stock system using the method I described. If you don't, it won't sound good.
__________________
2006 Avalon Touring Edition
Two D612D4's run off a D61000.1 w/ a 1.2 farad cap, in custom fiberglass sealed enclosures.
Soon to come: Tinted windows. K&N intake kit. High-flow exhaust. And a set of 20's (maybe 18's). http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2155533
Do you know what the sub and front speakers are crossed-over at?
the sub would have a low pass filter and I assume the front door speakers have a mid pass filter.
I'm actually surprised your satisfied with a line level converter, I've hooked a few of those up and while they sound ok, they usually make a good set of subs sound boomy and loose.
I thought you may have found a way to split a pre-amped signal.
... the sub would have a low pass filter and I assume the front door speakers have a mid pass filter ... a line level converter, I've hooked a few of those ... subs sound boomy and loose ... split a pre-amped signal.
Not you too Eric!
I have two comments.
1) I have never trusted stereo installation shops. I may not be as technical as you guys are but I am really good at wiring installations and I use all the right components/connectors when I do an installation.
Osidepunker, do you have a chain franchise that you recommend, like Boomer McLoud here on the east coast?
2) Osidepunker, I would love to know how to make those fiberglass enclosures if there is a 'how to' site I could look at.
Thanks for your patience and I am sorry to be so flip, but now I am intimidated by your collective knowledge.
....The L/R channels have the sub freqs rolled off and the sub channel has the upper freqs rolled off. Either one by themselves will sound like shit.
...It's sounds very nice and full, all the way down to 10hz. I have a gain adjustment on my dash if I want to turn it up.
I’m not doubting your expertise my friend but rather looking for a logic: Why would you want the front channel speakers to handle low frequency and the sub handle high frequency? None of these speakers are supposed to handle any of those signals; for one thing, the front drivers do not have enough meat (enclosure) to reproduce good base and, certainly, you don’t want your sub (not woofer) to handle anything higher than 30 Hz.
Is there truly a car sub capable of handling 10 Hz signal? Didn’t you have to change the alternator to feed that little monster of yours?
However, about the 10hz, that is so incredibly low, even hiphop tracks with some REALLY low bass like Paul Wall, Lil Jon, three six mafia, etc.. are only going down to about 25-30hz... most songs with a powerfull bass hit would be measured between 30-40hz. Only song your going to hear that plays something at 10hz is something with a pipe organ.
osidepunker, you might think your going down to 10hz but I highly doubt it,
get one of those tone generators and play it in your car, I'd bet money your system will go silent when you play anything under 20hz.
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