Wideband O2

[94_Rolla_Guy]

im in need of some Air/Fuel monitoring, I have heard that the Narrow band ones are basically useless?

So looking at the wideband systems im not sure what to get any suggestions?

Why are the narrow band so bad??

[Flashmn]

I have heard that the Narrow band ones are basically useless?

Yeah most are just discolights. There are few exceptions, but they cost 100bucks and I know of two local makers. They're calibrated differently than the autometer/whatever brand one.
FMI 1.4/1.2 and VPV-motorracing lambda are the two I know

Narrowband isnt bad, its just that the transition phase at stoich is very steep. Most gauges cant read it accurately, because they're linear. However ECU's still use narrowband to adjust the mixture. As was before the wideband hype came along, people didnt have widebands and cars were successfully tuned with narrowband lambdas. Then suddenly wideband comes along and now narrowband is called useless.
Wideband has its advantages, the biggest disadvantage is the price.

[dgoodhue]

Narrow band have low resolution in the rich and lean portion of the air fuel ratio curves. The issue with this, is the production tolerance varies values from sensor to sensor. From what I have seen Narrow bands are mostly accurate and repeatable, but you need a WBo2 figure out what AFR is to begin with and this will vary from sensor to sensor. I have seen what is ideal for one car can be dangerously lean on another (or vice versa pig rich). The difference between voltage will only be 1-2%. Wideband O2's are almost perfectly linear.

I recommend

http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/

I like their products and they didn't build their business [cough]steal[/steal] from the DIY WBo2 project.

[dgoodhue]

Originally Posted by Flashmn

However ECU's still use narrowband to adjust the mixture. As was before the wideband hype came along, people didnt have widebands and cars were successfully tuned with narrowband lambdas. Then suddenly wideband comes along and now narrowband is called useless.

Yeah I use to do that. I would get my A/F flat accross the RPM band (on the rich side) and then take it to the track and slowly lean it out (with an adjust fuel pressure regulator) until the trap speeds don't increase anymore. The a/f guage are can be way off, and it can give the average driver the false security.

[toyotaspeed90]

you can use a split second afr gauge for narrowband o2's...

to tell you what they mean.... a narrowband generally gives a 0-1v output.... so the difference between the afr's are very close together within that 1v range.... a wideband (seen 2 versions) will have either 0-3v or 0-5v...... all aftermarkets i've seen use a 5v range... so, the difference between the same reading a 0-1v will make and a 0-5v will make is 5 times larger... ie, easier to read

the afr gauges for narrowbands are considered light shows mainly because the range is so close, that the afr's can change quickly..... a split second afr will actually slow the readings down (ie, split second) and give a little more readable output

but the innovative lm1's are pretty inexpensive when it comes to widebands.... there are also some sights online that show you (with parts list) how to make your own using a stock civic wideband

[dgoodhue]

Originally Posted by toyotaspeed90

to tell you what they mean.... a narrowband generally gives a 0-1v output.... so the difference between the afr's are very close together within that 1v range.... a wideband (seen 2 versions) will have either 0-3v or 0-5v...... all aftermarkets i've seen use a 5v range... so, the difference between the same reading a 0-1v will make and a 0-5v will make is 5 times larger... ie, easier to read

It true that the voltage reading are smaller, but the bigger problem is the non linearity. The normal operation takes up about 80% of the range, the important WOT readings are crammed into about 5% and this small range varies within the tolerance of the sensor.

the innovative lm1's are pretty inexpensive when it comes to widebands.... there are also some sights online that show you (with parts list) how to make your own using a stock civic wideband

It not just any Civic Sensor (NTK) it was a specific rare lean burn engine. The problem is that sensor is now $180 (and super expensive from Honda) the last time I checked vs the sensor most of WB O2 scompanies are using which is $60 (LSU4). The good thing about the more expensive NTK sensor has better long term reliability and its sup[osed to be more of a bench mark vs the LSU4.

I have NTK sensor/DIY but it was the only reasonably priced one available, I would probably buy the Innovate/LSU4 now.

[TheOtherCarolla]

I really need to invest in a Wideband and megasquirt to tune my car. Its rich as hell at idle, and lean at full throttle. It runs fine under normal driving, but doesnt like to be revved past 7k rpm.

[Flashmn]

Generally WB sensors go from 100bucks onward. for 67bucks, I'm betting its a normal 4 wire sensor.

The good thing about the more expensive NTK sensor has better long term reliability and its sup[osed to be more of a bench mark vs the LSU4.

Well.. you can kill any lambda sensor, being an NTK/Bosch or no name brand doesnt have much difference. Its just that manufacteuring tolerances are better watched in some than others.

I really need to invest in a Wideband and megasquirt to tune my car. Its rich as hell at idle, and lean at full throttle. It runs fine under normal driving, but doesnt like to be revved past 7k rpm.

How do you figure that, did you do an exhaust gas analyze or use an autometer/etc O2 gauge (useless). A corolla in general doesnt like to be revved past 7k rpm, because the valves start floating in a 4A-FE at 7000rpm with the stock springs. Theres a reason the redline is where it is, plus on the FE, the fuel cut is there. Then again I might of mistaken your setup, but IIRC it was a 4A-FE.