G head on 4AF block?

[Punisher]

Ok, I'm wondering this...

Would it be possible to take my 4AF, take out the head.. put in a G head.. get the block bored to 86mm, then I need to match the pistons with the larger size.. All gen. of the 3SGE or 3SGTE are 86mm bore, or 1800CC....
Possible to use 3SG pistons?
Then up the compression through shaving the head or longer stroke?

See what I'm getting at?

What would I have to do about the cams though? Since my 4AF is DOHC but it isn't twin-cam.. Are all of the G heads twin-cam?
Basically, I put 500 dollars into my 4AF cams to have them hardwelded and re-ground.. so kinda be ashame just to set them away..
Anything else I need to think about?

[TRDragoon]

there would be a better way.....

get a 7A block (1800cc) and add on the GE head.....would be alot better and try getting the redtop or GZE fuel injector/rail. use a Bluetop ECU if you want the TVIS, if not try lookig for redtop ECU.

if you're under budget, don't bother boring out the 4A block, and if you're already gonna spend $500, why dun you just get a 4AGE complete for $500.....i understand yoou want to make an engine fast but your budget hafto be bigger too

[Punisher]

My budget is fine.. It's something I'm going to collect the parts over time and do while I gain my racing skills anyway..

I want this to just be carburated.. I figure if I get a longer stroke or up the compression by shaving the head I'll be doing pretty good and I'll be keeping things in the NA rink...

I'd go with large port or atleast port gasket matching.. no TVIS..

From what I can see if I bore the block out to 1.8l (2000cc) I can pull 140hp with out an issue.. and with the higher comp. and other engine work I could do 200 it seems..

I'm just confused as it seems.. I could get a whole 4A-GE engine.. I don't need the fuel injection crap.. I could keep the engine on my stand and slowly rebuild it.. Get longer duration cams on it.. get the cylinders bored out to 2000cc get the ports gasket matched.. everything polished up..
Although if I keep my trusty 4AF.. which I know is in good condition.. and just put a G head in the block... hmmm idk..

I'm looking at the 3SGE III which has 200HP at 10.3:1 compression ratio..

Take my 4AF.. drop a G head in it.. run the compression at 10.3:1 and I should be good.. with all the rest of the mods of course.. Keep the stock tranny in.. if it goes bang.. it goes bang.. then I just drop in a beefier tran.. I want to keep it automatic..

The question is.. which is better, shave the head.. or turbo/SC.. more reliable.. and more streetable.. I'd imagine turbo or SC because that I can control the boost level and keep it low when I just want to drive around or higher for race..? But once again I run into issues with my carburator...

[TRDragoon]

Originally posted by Punisher
My budget is fine.. It's something I'm going to collect the parts over time and do while I gain my racing skills anyway..

I want this to just be carburated.. I figure if I get a longer stroke or up the compression by shaving the head I'll be doing pretty good and I'll be keeping things in the NA rink...

I'd go with large port or atleast port gasket matching.. no TVIS..

From what I can see if I bore the block out to 1.8l (2000cc) I can pull 140hp with out an issue.. and with the higher comp. and other engine work I could do 200 it seems..

I'm just confused as it seems.. I could get a whole 4A-GE engine.. I don't need the fuel injection crap.. I could keep the engine on my stand and slowly rebuild it.. Get longer duration cams on it.. get the cylinders bored out to 2000cc get the ports gasket matched.. everything polished up..
Although if I keep my trusty 4AF.. which I know is in good condition.. and just put a G head in the block... hmmm idk..

I'm looking at the 3SGE III which has 200HP at 10.3:1 compression ratio..

Take my 4AF.. drop a G head in it.. run the compression at 10.3:1 and I should be good.. with all the rest of the mods of course.. Keep the stock tranny in.. if it goes bang.. it goes bang.. then I just drop in a beefier tran.. I want to keep it automatic..

The question is.. which is better, shave the head.. or turbo/SC.. more reliable.. and more streetable.. I'd imagine turbo or SC because that I can control the boost level and keep it low when I just want to drive around or higher for race..? But once again I run into issues with my carburator...

man.....you're messed.... first organize what you want....
and if you really want it for race use, get a manual....with an automatic, there will be no chance for you to rev your car up to 8000 RPM.

if you want to keep it N/A, try to get a redtop engine and try boring it out to 1800cc...BTW, 1.8litre is 1800 cc....

if you're gonna boost the car, better off with 7A block (1800cc) and just put on the either GZE head or bluetop head.

and i dun think 3SGE had 200hp....(well i could be wrong)

sort what you really wanna do, in my mind this is what i think.....on a drag go GZE....if on circuits go N/A 20V.....

depanding on what you do, the engine setting are different

[Punisher]

I know I'm messed.. lol..

I've been considering getting a 4AGZE front clip.. and just boring the 4AGZE out to 1.8l.. that should give a lot more power, eh?

I don't want it for drag or 1/4 mile racing.. I want it for real off-road racing or touge.. and I've taken my 4AF with the 244 cams and auto tranny to 7K all the time before I would slap stick it to 2nd gear and no problems... and with the 4AGZE I should have no reason to take it past 6.5K really.. and with the 4AGZE I should have no reason to take it past 6.5K really..

[TRDragoon]

the automatic tranny loses so much torque tho.....the slipping action on the torque converter will make you loose the HP..... especially on track, you really want that down shiftig action tobe quick so you can get the late brake action....(sorry if i dun make sense )

remember when you put boost on your car, you gotta make the compression ratio as low as you can but not too low.....and if you bore the piston to 1800cc, what piston would you put for that perfect compression???....

compare these, a MR2 GZE are 8:1 ratio, but the AE92GTZ GZE are 8.9:1 ratio.....the GTZ has more hp, but also have a common problem as blowing head gasket, warped head, etc etc.....

also, cam are critical, i agree, butalso the connecting rod for the pistons are also critical too.....

theres so many stuff you can do with an engine.....first choose if you want boost or N/A, carb or injected? etc etc

[Punisher]

Well, I want it to be streetable as well as have balls for the off-road racing and maybe touge.. and I have no problems with keeping it N/A.. I just want to be able to fairly easily draw more like 160-200HP out of it
I was looking at specs for the 3SGE generations and the third gen was supposedly 200..
I just see no reason to put another engine in if I can use my same 4A block and put a G head in it to get what I want..

[TRDragoon]

how much Milage do you have on your engine?
if you know that your block is still good, i guess you can use it but a low milage 4AGE is also pretty cheap.

if you are in rally/off road, i suggest a boosted engine, eince you are gonna need that extra torque for the hills etc etc.

main reason why people want to keep it N/A is so they can have a longer rev (say 10000 rpm) b4 they shift. but IMO, i dun think a off roader really needs a high reving engine.

[Punisher]

TRD, do you have MSN mess? If so get me.. pink_floyd17@hotmail.com

If not..
I'm not sure about the 7A block as it seems fairly unsupported.. Where as the 4AG blocks are highly supported because of the ae86 craze...

3SFE L4 96-97 86.0 86.0 1998 9.5

The '96 - '97 3SFE engine is the 86mm bore but it is 9.5:1 compression ratio same as my 4AF block.. 3SF - 4AF same head.. I could use those pistons possibly?

[Punisher]

My 4AF has a 115,000 on it.. Maintained all the time.. and I just replaced the rod bearings with new Toyota bearings.. and the old ones looked fine.. the engine is clean and runs very strong.. It also takes the abuse I put at it.. I know it's good and that is kind of why I don't want to toss it

Where as who knows who had the 4AGE engine last.. and what they did with it.. etc.. plus if I just keep my 4A engine and put a different head on it.. it makes it easier for me setting things up in the long run..

I basically want an all around good car.. that I can drive on the street all the time.. whip around.. take it off-roading.. touge.. or maybe some cheesy FWD drifting.. whatever ya know..

I want it to be automatic though because of the daily driving issue.. and at this point in my life I'm not really ready to hop on the manual train..

I also don't understand 10K rev'ing to be honest with you.. it's really pointless IMO.. Also getting my 4A block to 2000cc would make a huge difference.. making it lighter by taking some of the cylinder walls out.. and adding more power with more displacement.. sounds like the way to go with an already pretty damn light engine.

I basically wish I could just build up my 4AF with parts from other 4A engines.. Get the 1.8l pistons from the 3SF engine.. get a G head.. mix things around.. and then just supercharge it .. super would probably be my best bet with things being automatic, right?

Get large ports going on.. some valvetrain work for the larger displacement.. put an oil cooler on the block..

I run my tranny slap stick when I want to road race anyway.. or anytime I want to keep my gears locked to keep up higher rpm's for torque.. Usually keep it in 2nd and it zips around quick.. and when I gotta brake and I need to come back up to speed again.. If I'm at 25mph or lower I'll just throw it into 1st and stomp the peddle and I'm back up to speed again.. I've been doing it for a long time and I recently had my tranny inspected and it's still clean and strong.. so it's all good.. plus I've seen the inside of my engine and it's clean..

[TRDragoon]

some day ou will hafto learn how to drive manual i mean its really frustrating at first but once you get used to it, you'll never go back to auto speaking of experience.

a plain 4AGE is good enuff, heck it can take on any civics out there(USDM) what more can you ask for
and as long as you own a 4AGE, you can always do thing in a long run....i mean having an extra project engine in your garage is a great idea

[toyotaspeed90]

just to give you another idea (that very few or none think of)

first off..... i wouldn't waste the money on a 4a-f block... it's a weaker than the 4a-ge block..... if you're going to boost... don't use the 7a-fe block.... the crank can't be swapped with the stronger 4a-gze, so you still have the weakness of the 7a block

if you want to have a carb'd 4a-ge (or i guess it would actually be a 4a-g) then you could do something very similar with your car that i will be doing to my car within the next month.....

get a 4a-ge (probably a smallport...... import motor shops can get low mileage longblocks for cheap.... we're looking at $400 locally)... then basically do what you need to make the head work with a carb (don't worry about the ecu...)....

use the wiring and the ecu from your 4a-f on the 4a-ge...... you will need to find someone (or a shop) that can tune the fuel/air curves and remove the rev limiter on the ecu (and i'll have to ask racer25 what else he's doing to my 4a-fe ecu)..... then you'll need an adjustable FPR for anything above 6200prm's or so...... so basically you would be tricking the 4a-ge to thinking it's a carb'd 4a-f... takes care of the 4a-ge issues of running a carb

[Punisher]

What about boost on the carburator though?

I'm considering a 4AGZE... I really can't decide at all.. I think I'm going through all of this crap now because I've been away from my car for a week because of this shitty thanksgiving trip.. Once I get back home and I get out in my mod'ed 4AF for a little bit I'll be happy..

Ultimately I need to look into local car clubs and go to track events.. my passion is off-road competitive racing and road racing.. and touge.. So what I really need to do is get into racing events.. gain skill and earn respect.. I want to get into like competition racing where a little more than a trophy is handed out.. I want to take my earnings and put them toward building up a better engine... as a racers goal is always to go faster.. Basically so I can get into more competitive faster racing circuits.. that and blow civics off the road..

Honestly though a couple nights after I got my car running with the new mods.. my timing was still farked up though because of the distributor spark timing being off.. but anyway..

I was coming through my town and next to me was a Neon that was by visual inspection mod'd someway on the engine.. atleast an intake and exhaust system... I was really surprised when we came up to the bridge which takes you out of the down-town area.. The light turned and we moved off and I ran my automatic in 1st gear to 7K before I slapped it into 2nd gear and I kept it in second gear a little past 6K.. at this point we were pulling something close to 70MPH and the bridge is probably something like a 1/4 mile.. anyway by the end I had the car in 3rd and we were pullin close to 90MPH and he had just slowly passed me.. I was really surprised to see that I even had a chance in hell racing him.. Really gave me a lot more respect for my 4A-F..

No one was on the bridge.. and it is 1 lane coming from down-town.. so he went off into the opposing lane and from what I could tell he had the peddle down.. because he slowly passed me.. and I'd figure going into the other lane if possible he would've flew passed me for a good laugh.. but he didn't.. I really wish my timing would've been right then I probably woulda kept right on him

I also notice that the night I actually got my weber carb running on the car.. and I took it out for a spin around my neighborhood.. I didn't have the hood on.. and I gunned it coming up my street and the tach flew so fast.. and now that I got the K&N air filter on the carb and no actual intake setup yet.. it isn't as fast.. so I'm confident that once I setup my ram-air intake which is going to feed from the right front 1/4 panel that I'll be seeing a lot better performance

[toyotaspeed90]

if your main purpose is to start racing more, get faster, and gain respect.... then for now i highly suggest you don't touch the motor

go out there and get used to your car on the track.... learn to drive it nice and smoothly.... then use the car know-how to drive it through corners and the quickest way through corners.....

then beef up the suspension with larger (or in the case of an sr5, adding them) swaybars, heavier duty (and lower) springs/struts.... possibly other parts as well with good tires.... then re-learn the car..... if you can take your skills to that car you will go much faster than you would believe......

then, when you absolutely need more power, upgrade the engine

the power of the car on auto-x and road course isn't in the engine.... it's in the driver...... i've ridden on a road course in a 1992 integra GSR where all of the other cars had porsche stamped on the back or had a turbo.... we had lap times in the upper end of the group because the driver was amazing

at this point in those kinds situations (on and off the street) i can beat civics easily and i have a stock 4a-fe with around 100hp.... my suspension is and i haven't gotten a bad 'review' on the suspension from anyone who has ridden or driven my car

[Punisher]

yea, toyota I know what you are saying.. I did upgrade the rims.. I got ProLine 928 series 14x6's and I got uniroyal Tiger Paw Touring H series tires.. that's a step up from the 13's that come stock on the car.

I also installed a front sway bar from an '89 GTS coupe.. and I really notice a HUGE difference in the turning ability of the car.. back when I was still on the stock tires and rims.. which the backs were going bald..

But I noticed that going into a turn.. like before I would have to steer into the turn a lot more.. But this time when I was going around and I went to compensate and steer into the turn like normal.. the car was actually steering HARDER and pulling into the turn and I nearly wacked the curve! lol

So the sway makes a HUGE difference and now once I come back from vacation I will get my rolla out and take it for her first drive with the new rims/tires on.. should be nice!

So you are right.. I am going to get my car out there and learn it better and join a car club that does off-roading and road track racing and get respect.. then my next upgrade in handling is gonna be to drop the car about 1" in the front and like 2" in the back, since the back sits higher and bouncier than the front, and get a bigger rear sway bar.. should be going strong then.