To GoodCookieDrift... about the "86 way".

[Rolla Pat]

Good Cookie Drift, you wrote...

With Initial D, Super Street, Speed Trial and Moto's Drift Day, there's a marked increase in popularity of the AE86. There has been far more people looking and purchasing 86's over the past year or so further depleting the stock 86's found across not only Canada, but North America on a whole. With that said, any car that faces such rarity should have some sort of buyers etiqute involved. Just like Ferrari or Aston Martin, there should be a procedure, a protocol involved with the pruchase and upgrading of an 86.

Why may you ask? Because it seems that over the past year, the heritage and essence of the 86 has slowly been depreciating because of non-enthusiasts with deep pockets. Bandwagoners with wads of cash that side-step the build up process, the sourcing of parts, the reasearch, the hours of frustration...the learning curve, always associated with vintage cars are slowly dragging down the REAL meaning of owing a Hachiroku. It would appear, that the mentality that dominates the honda forum (you don't modify your car, you modi-buy it)seems to be seeping into the 86 forum where, modi-buying your car has never really existed.

Is this elitist? Is this trying to be exclusive? YES!!! The preservation of heritage depends on maintaining a certain standard by which all ENTHUSIASTS should adhere to or else, the 86 faces the same bastardization that Civics incurred in the mid 90's.

There needs to be a standard set to weed out the "kids" that want to immitate from the true enthusiasts. Every ae86 owner should have owned supra rims or stock rims for a lengthy time before getting jdm rims; 86 enthusiasts wait 2 or 3 years before securing a Kouki or Zenki bumper,they just don;t buy one for sh*ts and giggles; all 86 enthusiasts know the different traits between the 16v bluetop, highcomp redtop, 20v and the gze; true enthusiasts know the difference between "redlines","whitelines","zenkis" and "levins"; true enthusiasts know whats best for their car.

There has to be a separation between the heralded 86 owner and the kid that wants to be like Takumi. Hell, if you have never even heard of Running Free, Rally Kids, Hiroshi, Keichi or even Option, then perhaps you shouldn't be looking to "JDM" your 86. If you don't know how to change your oil, or let alone reaseach how things work on the 86, then perhaps you should not own the hachiroku.

Consider me a purist or even an elitist. In any case, I feel a "stable" of some sort needs to be established in order to preserve both the japanese and north american heritage of the ae86. you should have to prove that you have knowldege of the ae86 culture in Japan before you secure a kouki bumper. You should prove that you know what a 20v will do over a gze before you get a swap. Just like ferrari, owners need to EARN their ultimate 86 and just not BUY them. time, effort and passion are what drive the hachiroku, not a visa gold card.

To Good Cookie Drift and to all....

Yes, I've ranted before about the AE86 becoming to much of a cult car, but you guys seem to have it all wrong. Something I've discovered myself. Like some of you, I discovered the AE86 not by Initial D, but by sinking my eyes, in books, web sites and being in love with this little car and it's status in Japan as a great performer. Best of all, it's a Toyota. The car is as the 83 GTi was to Volkswagen and the CRX to Honda. Great compact performers.

The love of the AE86 in Japan didn't come from Initial D, it came from people with experience who discovered the potential of this little beast back in 83 (year it came out in Japan). That car has been an icon there for over 19 years now. Did you know that the AE86 is the most popular car in Japan in the tuners circles? And no, it's not because of Initial D. Initial D was born out of the popularity of the AE86.

I love the car, but unfortunately we can't stop people from buying them. The "elitist" theory is just a bit too "naziesque" to me. Don't you feel good when you convert a friend who drives a Civic to an AE86? Happened to me, it's a great feeling. I don't know many wannabe's with AE86s. Most of the people I know are true Toyota fans.

The Corolla GT-S was the summum of sport compact technology back in 83 in Japan and opened the way to what sport compacts came to be today. 4 wheel disc brakes, twin cam engine, 16 valves, oil cooler, tachometer, front and back sway bars, high revving mill, plus the 4age was rated at 128 hp in Japan in 83! The GTS was the top compact performer at the time! Some cars today in 2002 don't even come close to what the GTS was 20 years ago!

In the end, do your own thing. Who cares if some 16 year old with tons of cash finds an AE86 in mint shape because of Initial D. If you're angry about that, maybe it's jealousy. Fact is, enjoy what you got. A car is pretty much like a girl, for sure some guy is going to show up with this hot girl on is arm, but you've had a special relationship with yours for 17 years now, you know everything about her, she's not as hot as that other girl but she's a classic and rare these days. Doesn't that do it for you?

Does for me.

You also wrote...

I want to start a new thread because like many of you stated, the last was just getting clouded with mis-communication and puddles of jealous-ladden statements. It seems, that many have missed the point...some by a long shot.

think of it like this: who gets more 'respect' (for lack of a better word).

the skater who goes to the parks, malls, commercial complexes, schools, busting his ass, busting his nuts, getting brusies, scratches and cuts just to perfect that rail slide or that heel flip to manual over the bench (for those that don't know, these are tricks preformed by skateboarders) or the guy who just dresses in and poses with all the latest skater fashion to look cool but can barely balance let alone do tricks on a skateboard??

who would you goto for skating advice? who would you rather associate yourself with to skate with? who would you consider a TRUE skateboarding enthusiast? and who would you consider a poser?

who do you think knows about skating more? who do you think could help you on specifics and techniques? and who do you think is in it because they love it rather than because its current trend?

thats all that it boils down to.....who's into the ae86 for the love of it and who's into it because some fricking cartoon impressed them? Its not whether they are rich or poor, work on their own car or not, race their car or what not...its about the passion and ENTHUSIASM that one gushes with when they sit and talk about their ae86.

I'm sick of people that purchase a hachiroku because of initial d or super street or what ever media influence. I'm sick of people thinking that kouki bumpers are a dime a dozen. i'm sick of people thinking that ae86 mods and upgrades are as easy as hondas. i'm sick of people thinking that the ae86 is something that its not!!!

after every shannonville event, I know exactly why i chose my ae86....to try and get her to go as fast as stink in and out of the turns. That to me is my ENTHUSIASM. thats why i bought the heralded ae86. whats your enthusiasm?

Good cookie drift, I totally understand your point of view. But I also see your point as a bit selfish. Why? Where does one start loving a car? You're telling us you never bought anything, or dressed up as anything, or did something without any outside influence? Without having seen it on TV? How many stories have I seen and biographies have I read on legends of race car driving would it be formula 1, touring, Lemans etc.. who haven't been influenced by racing movies or cartoons on TV? There's so many I don't have enough fingers to count them! So these guys don't deserve doing or driving what they have?

You have to start somewhere! I fell in love with cars when I saw Steve Mcqueen playing it out in Le Mans and Bullit, when I saw the Dukes of Hazard on TV and Knight Rider. I used to read a magazine calles CARtoons, all this and I was about 8 or 9 years old. I used to watch Racer X, Mask. I collected Hot Wheels and had reduced model cars that I had to put together. Gee, I even have a pic of myself in 83 at the age of 6 with an RX-7 t-shirt!!

We've all been influenced by something, somehow, would it be friends, family, car ads or TV. But it has to start somewhere. In some people, yes, it's start with a cartoon called Initial D. 50 years ago, it was James Dean movies. It hasn't changed man, it's the same vicious circle repeating itself over and over again. Sports Compact Car had an article two issues ago about Street Racing. They had a print out of time magazine from 1953 about street racing in LA. you could read it and you couldn't tell if this was an article that was 50 years old. Same words, 50 years later. Young kids influenced by their parents, friends or what they say in movies or comic books.

What kind of shoes do you wear? Jogging? Basketball?, Airwalks? Do you actually skate, jog or shoot hoops? Do you wear a baseball cap, do you actually play baseball? You own an AE86, do you know Toyota's history by heart? Can you tear down an engine and rebuild it in 2 days without the Toyota manual? Do you know every little detail about the 4age? How much pounds of torque is needed to tighten a main bearing on the 4age? Come on....

But all of this seems to bother you. Do you envy those who find AE86's in better shape than yours but don't appreciate the car as much as you? That's jealousy man. I've seen people owning AE86's that were true Toyota fans beating the sh*t out of their car and I've seen (like a recent friend of mine) a guy buying a AE86 because of Initial D and treating his car like it was gold, wanting to learn everything about it.

If you want to be an elitist, go find them on the net and buy them before these evil 16 year old with cash and an Initial D fetish come and snap them, but remember, you can't buy them all.

Like I said before man, you love your car, do you're own thing. Who cares about the rest when you have your flame? Selfishness and jealousy have not done any great to this world. Give some kid a chance.

[FourAG]

I liked your original post, but you did not have to start a whole new thread about it. This is just going to create grudges and arguments man. There are so few AE86 owners as it is, we shouldn't be arguing about it!!!! :

[project trueno]

Originally Posted by FourAG

I liked your original post, but you did not have to start a whole new thread about it. This is just going to create grudges and arguments man. There are so few AE86 owners as it is, we shouldn't be arguing about it!!!! :

because there are so few 86 owners, thats why we must UNITE! AND SHARE OUR VIEWS! SHARE! SHAARREE!!!!

Rolla Pat:

basically no one here is wrong, they all just have different views, and its good to have different views, else we'd be like cyborgs or something...

if u agree to something, great, if u don't, don't try to make yourself think like the other guy, u'll get nothing out of it

[Rolla Pat]

FourAG, I'm not trying to start an argument. To all actions, they are reactions. We can't expect people to just shut up and act like robots. Project Trueno said it perfectly, if we all shared the same point of view, this world would be very boring. This is a simple discussion. Why did I start a new thread? Because I felt the old threads we're moving on to other directions. This is my own personnal direct answer to GoodCookieDrift. Didn't you read the topic name?

[FourAG]

I wasn't trying to be hostile Rolla Pat, I'm a newbie on the board as well as in the whole AE86 scene. :o But I've just seen posts like these turn into flame wars on other message boards. Anyway, if you were referring directly to him, you could have just private messaged him.

[toymaniac]

Originally Posted by FourAG

I wasn't trying to be hostile Rolla Pat, I'm a newbie on the board as well as in the whole AE86 scene. :o But I've just seen posts like these turn into flame wars on other message boards. Anyway, if you were referring directly to him, you could have just private messaged him.

isin't toyota nation a disscusion forum??.... rolla pat just said what he tinks

just like goodcookiedrift did, just like me right now....

[goodcookiedrift]

totally understnad your point of view pat. But i think selfishness, is the wrong word. Cuz as anyone would know who's met me via 86 knows that i do all i can to help others.

What i do not chose to share is my hard earned info, knowledge and utilities with people that haven't earned that right to be privy to such resources. I see no fairness or justice in helping someone who modi-buys their car based on media influence while the guy who bought it out of passion and true indulgence and built his ae86 from ground up struggles just to get that one damn nut lose.

I'm simply placing integrity back where it belongs. And if that means screening and segregating the true heads from the posers, then so be it. If that is deemed as selfish, well i guess i'm a selfish person.

And no pat, i have rarely done anything based on outside influences based on others or media. i do things because I choose to do it...i see it as viable, beneficial or favoursome for myself. Sure as a kid you're always infuenced by outside sources....but you know what pat, i don't want KIDS owning an 86 living vicariously through initial d. thats the difference. Yes I wear baseball caps, ol' skool pumas and jeans...but thats fashion and to me, the ae86 SHOULDN'T be fashionable.....it should be revered based on its inherent characteristics. if you as an adult cannot make a reasonable decision based on YOUR personal interests and simply let media spontanaety decide your purchasing/socio actions, well i'm sorry to say, you're no better than a lemming.

And no, this doesn't stem from jealousy or envy pat. And I hardly see how one can inference that as I mentioned nothing about the condition or socio/economic/gender/age group of the buying demographic. It does stem though, out of the proverbial cheating of working, learning and involving thats associated with modifying a car. In other words it stems out of people jumping the que and not paying their dues. To me, that's not copesthetic and i'll be damned if i let it pass me by and shrug it off as nothing.

BTW, I think its 103 ft/lbs of torque for the main bearing....

[ek-9]

I have to say that every question I've posted on here has been answered by more then 1 person trying to help and on several occasions it's been GCD (GoodCookieDrift).

I'm somewhat of a newbie here, only started really posting maybe in the last 2-3 months but I've been on and off the board for almost a year now. I haven't received any newbie bashing or differential treatment at all. I learned of the existence of the AE86 thru InitialD but went online and reserached all sorts of sites and magazines before laying down cash to buying one.

And I think where people get annoyed is there is SO much reference and self help info out there that is extremely accessible but some people are too lazy to find it. It's like sometimes my brother will ask me to do something that he could do on his own (for instance grab a can of coke or something) and it annoys me because it would take me just as much time and effort as it would take him. DO something for yourself for a change ... I hate laziness!

It's not about being elitist but more so about showing that you really have a passion by learning what you're passionate about.

[bondobondo]

all i can say is that i know both of you guys, rolla pat back from my club4ag days (with smuggla and bill sherewood), anyways, i posted in the meets and events thing and i want you guys to race it out, and whoever is the fastest gets to stay on the board
(okok stop hating me im just kidding, if you 2 remember this was the monumental 4ag battle between smuggla and sherewood)

seriously tho, you guys think you can make it to the meet on sunday? i know pats up in frenchy world, so it may be tough, but maybe at the next track day? bring out that 7agze ae92! and if you ever met that guy with the 3sgte ae92 gts!

i invited all 4age owners, so we can educate them, the posures will weed themselves out.

[goodcookiedrift]

Originally Posted by ek-9

And I think where people get annoyed is there is SO much reference and self help info out there that is extremely accessible but some people are too lazy to find it. It's like sometimes my brother will ask me to do something that he could do on his own (for instance grab a can of coke or something) and it annoys me because it would take me just as much time and effort as it would take him. DO something for yourself for a change ... I hate laziness!

EXACTLY!!!!!

[Rolla Pat]

Hey Nick!

I totally understand your point of view and thanks for clarifying your position. I always heard good things about you through Derek (we almost met on that weekend I came down) and was surprised to hear you so mad! Or just plain peeved. I totally agree with you on your point, I won't hide it, i'd like the AE86 to stay as anonymous as it can be, it's a classic and should remain in the hands of people who know "truly" what it is.

BUT...

This is a very utopic way of looking at it. That's why I mentioned the "selfish" part. There's a whole new generation of kids out there who are ready to discover the great hachi. Some good, some bad. Unfortunately, we can't do anything about it.

Are you going to Sanair this Sunday with Derek and Jover? I'll be there! You know, it's really nice talking to you, we both seem to like writing, taking in consideration the length of our posts! and it seems like we both have a lot to say on the conditions of all things! I think we'll have great discussions in the near future!

Hope to see you there!

Take care man...

[mbrady]

I'd like to speak out on behalf of the "16 year old kids" out there. Unlike most other pimple faced teens out there, I actually try to educate myself about automobiles rather than brag to my friends of my astute knowledge concerning TFATF. I have been into cars before I could walk. My first word was "car", I would wear my Firebird tee-shirt for days on end and wouldn't let my parents wash it, I was 8 when I hot-rodded my Powerwheel by removing the governors and adding larger wheels to change my final drive ratio so I could keep up with my neighbors go-kart. I read dozens of car mags each month, scour the Internet at all hours of the night looking for AE86 information (trying to de-code Japanese websites and bugging Garage Shapple for an English catalog that doesn't exist). I'm not your typical "kid". I'll agree that most teenage zombies think "noss" is "phat" and that 22" "dubs" would look "crunk" on their Accord, but you have to give some of us credit. I for one understand things like thermodynamic efficientcy, the advantages of a multi-valve cylinder head, why reducing unsprung weight is an important factor when building a performance vehicle, etc, etc. Just for the record . . . I've been a fan of "old school" imports for a few years now and have become obsessed with 'dimes, AE86s, RPS13s, and so on. I discovered the AE86 while surfing the Internet in search for Monkey Magic suspension goodies for an S13 car and not in SS or some other rag. Sure I like reading SS for the features (defenitely not the tech) b/c is gives me an Option-style mag to read that's in a language I understand. I just want it to be understood we aren't all rich kids with no understanding of heritage and a lack of respect for the "real" enthusiast. I consider myself a "real" enthusiast. I've actually woken myself up while dreaming of the roar of a 20V motor or the "psst" of BOV. I plan on getting a mechnical engineering degree and, hopefully, writting for a mag like SCC or Turbo. I'm a "car guy" in the truest sense and I'll always be.

BTW-I know this is my first post, but I figured I'd make it a somewhat meaningful one. This site has a lot of knowledgable members. I'll be around for a long time to come as long as you guys don't beat me up and steal my lunch money. Sorry if my post is slightly incoherent, it's late and I'm beat tired.

[bondobondo]

that was a good post brandy,

you should have let us guess your age.

anyways, good to see SOME of the younger generation are coming out knowing another word other than honda and civic.

[mbrady]

Thanks for the welcome! I think forums like these are good for young enthusiast to get a foothold in the scene and hopefully I'll be able to make a contribution to the AE86 cause.

[boroEF]

Originally Posted by trueno92

anyways, good to see SOME of the younger generation are coming out knowing another word other than honda and civic.

andrew, eat my poo