Wrapper

----- Original Message -----
From: "DH" <dh@stargate.com>
Newsgroups: alt.autos.toyota
Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 10:26 PM
Subject: Re: GM, Ford sales plunge, Chrysler falls to No. 4

[color=blue][color=green]
>> Which brand has the worst rated dealers - Ford or Toyota? Again, it isn't
>> Ford. Which brand rated better in the latest JD Powers dependability
>> study, Mercury or Toyota?[/color]
>
> Mercury makes up what percent of Ford sales? 10?[/color]

So? The fact that Mercury rated better than Toyota ougt to tell you
something. It tells me there is not much different between Ford products and
Toyota products and that most of the exaggerated claims of Toyota reliabilty
are just that - exaggerated claims.

[color=blue][color=green]
>> You are talking about the results of the IIHS crash testing, not real
>> world statistics.[/color]
>
> No. I'm talking about the real-world injury report. It was published in
> 2002. That's one of the reasons I bought the car.[/color]

Can you give a reference? I look at the IIHS Injury loss rating regulalrly
and Toyota's are often near the bottom of the list in the various
categories. Only recently have they started to move up. Pre-2006 RAV4s
always had a much worse than average injury loss ratings. Since my SO just
bought a new RAV4, I hope the new one are much bettter.
[color=blue][color=green]
>> Unfortunately, in the real world, the RAV4 has a terrible record (this
>> only applies to 03-05 Models, I assume the 06-> models will be much
>> better). The 03-05 models have an injury loss rating of 139 - not worst
>> in class, but second worst. Only the Mitsubishi Highlander was worse in
>> this classs (small 2WD SUVs).[/color][/color]
[color=blue]
> crApVEO sales are down, too. GM's not winning the next generation with
> that car.[/color]

Maybe not in the US, but the things are all over Mexico. Personally you
couldn't give me one. But for that matter, I don't want a Yaris or Scion
either.
[color=blue]
> My local repair shop, they never had Toyotas on the lot or in the bays.
> It's all GM, Ford and Chrysler. Well, they get some Volvos (though not
> from me, anymore) and they're always happy to hear about people who buy
> VWs. They don't see me any more. I almost feel bad about this, they're
> nice guys. Still, there's enough GM, Ford and Chrylser loyalists to keep
> them from starving.[/color]

Maybe your local repair lot doesn't attract the Toytoa crowd. The nearest
three repair shops to me in Raleigh claim to specialize in Japanese cars.
Their lots are overflowing with Toyotas and there are no US products there
at all. Take a good look around, I am sure you can find plenty of Toyota
specialists that are making good money fixing Toyotas. Down at my farm,
there is only one local repair shop. He gets plenty of Toyotas, and Ford,
and Chevrolets - heck I've even seen a Lexus in there (and I didn't even
know anyone in the area owned one -the nearest Lexus dealer is 50 miles away
from there).
[color=blue]
>
> The service department at the local Toyota dealer IS usually busy. But
> the waiting room (which is very nice, has papers, internet, drinks) is
> usually full of people because they're waiting for their cars. They're
> all in for an express oil change, so they don't wait long (everybody seems
> to bring a coupon, too, so it's competitive with Looby-Lube).
>
> Hear the jingling, Ed? That's money in my pocket(*).[/color]

And you think this is different from people owning Fords? I do my own oil
changes, so I don't actually spend much time at car dealers. The last time I
was at the Ford store I dropped off my Thunderbird to have some magic stuff
added to the automatic transmission fluid (an "optional" recall). Seemed
like most of the people there were getting routine stuff done.


I just bought a Ford Fusion. A similar Camry would have cost me thousands
more (plus I HATE the local Toyota dealers - they are less than ethical when
it comes to pricing - $500 doc fees are ridiculous). My experinece with
Fords has been very good. Why would I spend thousand more for a less
comfortable car just becasue it is a Toyota? My SO didn't even consider
anything but a Toyota when she bought her last car - a RAV4. It is a very
nice car. I've driven it for about 1000 miles and my only complaints about
the car are the excessive wind noise (at 70+ mph), the crummy seats (base
model), and the wacky controls (I suppose you can get used to those). But,
an equivalent Ford Escape would have cost at least $3000 less. I am sure you
believe the RAV4 will be more reliable than the Escape, but this has
certainly not been my Sister's experience. She has owned an Escape for the
last 6 years and her total cost for reapirs has been less than $20 (one
crusie control cable that I installed for free). So even if the RAV4 is 100%
trouble free, is it really justifiable to spend several thousand dollars
extra to avoid a $20 repair - or even a $300 repair? The next thing you will
tell me is that you'll make it up on the resale value. Maybe this is true
for some people, but for both my SO and my Sister, the resale value will be
trivial by the time they actually replace the vehicles. Before the RAV4, my
SO owned a Camry and a Chrsler mini-van. The Camry was still moving when she
sold it, but it was leaking so much oil it was killing the grass where she
parked. She got $400 from a Mexican guy for the car. The Chrsyler mini-van
went straight to the junkyard (over 200,000 miles with a blown transmission)
but she still got $300 for it. Hopefully the RAV4 will be at least as good
as the Chrysler mini-van. At least for the RAV4 she doesn't plan to try and
tow her 21 foot sailboat behind it (that is probably one reason the mini-van
died + Jiffy Lube screwing up on a transmission oil change).

I don't think Toyotas are especially bad vehicles, I just don't think they
are especially good either. Most Toyotas are "conservative" designs, well
assembled, and somewhat over-priced. Last year when I needed a new pick-up
for my farm I strongly considered a Tacoma. In the end I ended up with a
Nissan Frontier becasue I could not justify paying another $300 for a Tacoma
with less equipment. I am not particualrly happy with the Frontier, but I am
not sure I would have been any happier with the Tacoma. The only way I could
be sure would be to go out and swap the Frontier for a Tacoma and drive the
Tacoma for a year - that is probably not going to happen.

Ed