celica head swap - Toyota Nation Forum : Toyota Car and Truck Forums

Dirtracer16 · 09-10-2007, 08:50 PM

What head could i put on a 93 celica to get more compression?would a head off a 2.0 camry or celica fit on a 93 celica 2.2? what could we do to get the most horsepower without using a chip. also what is the max to shave off a head to be safe? we dont run an exhaust or a header. or is there a way t0 put an exhaust manifold off a 2.0 camry on a 93 2.2 celica?

PhillyDRFT · 09-10-2007, 10:17 PM

The OEM Camry exhaust is tubular. The closest thing you'll get to a header for the 5sfe. Depending on year and model number you may have a small clearence issue with the heat shielding on your hood touching the header.

More compression isn't the best idea in this occasion. Keeping in mind the more compressive weights you put on the rods, there will be increased wear and tear on the engine. You do have the right idea about a head swap, since the FE head is quite restrictive in terms of performance.

The 3sge head from the 4th gen celica can be mated to the block of the 5sfe with some work, you will have to use the 5sfe head gasket and cut in some coolant passages to the head. The gains? No one really knows yet. But it would involve using the 3sge ECU and splicing all of the new sensors into your existing 5sfe wiring. I couldn't tell you a change in compression, although I don't believe it will be much at all. You're gaining power by the less restrictive head now.

What kind of chip are you talking about? a reprogramed ECU from jet or something?

The 5sfe is just not a go fast engine. Things you can do however to pull some more power out though.

Apex SAFC 2
Run premium gas, Advance your timing and program the SAFC to compensate.
Short ram intake. I don't see a big difference between using a short ram and a CAI
Camry Exhaust Manifold
Underdrive pullys for the PS and Alternator.
Removing the AC compressor, pully, belts and condensor.
Re grounding the engine, and possibly the injectors themselves if you can get to them, it won't make you go faster but it will operate much smother if there isn't a lot of electrical resistance,
a less restirictive exhaust maybe 2.5" at most.

All of that together will net you about 20hp more at the crank at the absolute most. with a great tune. Will it feel like a totally different car? most likely. How much? about 1000$ plus however much premium gas runs you in your area.

Moral of the story? 3sgte swap or deal with the 5sfe for what it's there for. MPG.

However if you're dead set on using that engine, the 3sgte head can be mated to the 2,2l block to make a 5sgte but thats a whole new can of worms compared to the swap, or just trying to make NA power.

Pineapple · 09-11-2007, 02:19 PM

No head will give you higher compression. All the FE heads are the same and GE head will give you lower compression. You'll need custom pistons. Webcam have cam shaft for the 5S.

Dirtracer16 · 09-12-2007, 08:12 PM

how much more horsepower do you think i get out of the celica if i used the jet computer? i know you can change just about anything using it.

Luckynumber5 · 09-12-2007, 08:27 PM

never headr of a piggyback called a jet computer, onlu some ripoff wiring modifications, and one thing where you send your ecu off for like 500 bucks to get "flashed"

The 2.2 is not a good engine to try and get more power out of mod for mod. you can spend in upwards of $3000 adding differnt things or building it for all motor and still come out with a turd, or put together a cheap turbo kit for $1500 and get more power for less.

Dirtracer16 · 09-12-2007, 08:41 PM

Here's the deal. We arent allowed to run turbos, and as far as that 3sgte motor swap is looking......i dont think so. Lol. Looking into the computers for the celica, we've found that you can do quite a bit with them as far as performance goes.

PhillyDRFT · 09-12-2007, 11:46 PM

Why arent you aloud to run a turbo? Are you racing this and limited to a modification class? Just curious of your end goals. That might help people figure a solution to adding power and fitting your budget.

Jet is a reputible company. They've been around forever! My major gripe with them is 9 times out of 10 if you don't come to them with the specifics of what you want. You'll get an Eprom chip that changes your fuel maps. At most an extra 5hp. Nothing more than you'll be able to do yourself for 300$ less and an SAFC II.

You can do a lot with a tunable piggy back system period. Not just jet. And to my knowedge they aren't retunable to the user. I would look into megasquirt, E-manage and the SAFC II. Any of which will be cheaper and fit the 5sfe much better IMHO than a pre programed e-prom. All engines are different. You won't pull power from a base map they have drawn out for perfect lab conditions.

What is your power goal? and what will you be using the car for?

Dirtracer16 · 09-13-2007, 07:00 PM

we run dirt oval. The specs for our class is that you have to run completely stock.....no one does. so in order to keep up we have to do something to get the most power we can without being caught. i talked to a rep from the alamomotorsports and he said even with the safc you cant really do much with it and especially with the 5fse motor. however he said our best bet would be is to shave the head and do alittle cam work. Philly you seem to be the man when it comes to this stuff, tell me what do you think i should do.
5sfe
2.2 hp 130-135 torque 140 ft.

If you need the rules for the class i can post them.

PhillyDRFT · 09-13-2007, 11:50 PM

Ahh I see. So will this car be completely dedicated to the circle? or will it be driven daily?

The rep knows what he's talking about. The SAFC is pretty limited but it's not the computers fault, the FE head is just too damn restrictive. Adding the GE head from a 4th gen celica will net you a bit of a power gain. It's worth the time to do the swap if you have it. It's fairly straight forward to swap the 2.2l block over to the 3sge. The only physical modification needed would be linking 2 coolant pasages together by grinding out a small duct between the two. Use the 5sfe head gasket and you'll be good to go.

Putting the GE head on a 5sfe. requires the sensors and ECU to be swapped. All of the parts are pretty cheap at the local junk yard if you have the time and patients to do the wiring yourself. It WILL net you a better gain than a cam swap.

The only way to my knowledge to get a cam for the 5sfe is to have crower make you one to your own design or webcams offers a regrind service for your existing cams.

However you're in luck that the 5sfe is a torquey engine. The best advice I can give you is to run the highest octane you can get. When I used to run autocross I would mix 9 parts gas to 1 part Toluine/Acetone. I experimented with different mixtures to see what worked best for me. I ended up running 93 from the pump with a 1/11 mix of Toluine and Gas. I dunno if they test your fuel though before you run. They do around here for drag racing. Then advance your ignition timing. The Rule of thumb is 2hp for each Degree past top dead center. Whether or not it ends up with 2hp per it's still a noticible increase in power.

Removing the EGR, gutting or removing the cat. Using the camry exhaust manifold. Removing the AC pulley, belt and condenser. Some people take off the power steering but I find the gain of 1hp is outweighed by the handeling benefits of Power steering.

Underdriving the alternator will help you out also. I believe the alternater pully from a 7mgte or 7mge Supra will fit and underdrive the alt without causing a problem. I havent done it myself but it's been mentioned a few times in conversation.

If you have to maintain the visual of stock. Cut out the bottom of the air box and put a K&N or a higher flowing filter in there. You can also bypass the Coolant line to the throttle body. It's there to help on cold starts. TMK you also have a cold start injector. It's a 5th injector that adds a ritcher fuel mixture for the warm up process. Some people add a resister to the intake temp sensor to keep it active at all times. It doesn't add power just wastes gas. If you can think of a way to use the overly ritch condition to your benefit. I figured it's a bit of needed information.

If you're not a GT-S, The ECU from the GT-S 5sfe will add an extra 5hp baseline from a more agressive fuel map. The only draw back Is you'll have to get it from a 92-93 since you hae a knock sensor and a few newer things on your 93 5sfe.

Then the rest of the stuff I mentioned above. Regrounding, Adding a volage stabalizer. Better tires. Gutting the interior. Chiping out all of the sound deadening material. If rules allow you can replace the quarter windows with plexi or lexan.

Theres also chassis modification. I'm sure you know a lot of what I'm telling you so I won't bore you with the rest but if you wan to discuss further about chassis stiffining, quake proofing ect... All of that will help. Theres a lot you can do to help compete It's just in different places than power.

This post has made me sorely miss my autocross coupe

If it's not too much for ya, I wouldn't mind taking a look at the rules. As long as there not a million pages of nonsense like the SCAA rulebook.

Dirtracer16 · 09-14-2007, 12:27 PM

Removing the EGR, gutting or removing the cat. Using the camry exhaust manifold. Removing the AC pulley, belt and condenser. Some people take off the power steering but I find the gain of 1hp is outweighed by the handeling benefits of Power steering.

Ya thats pretty much what we have now except for the camry exhaust manifold. we run a 93 Gts coupe.

Here are the rules.

All cars are to be 4 cylinder, front wheel drive. Engine must match year, make and model of car in competition.
VIN #‘s must be provided if requested by track Official.
All cars should be neat appearing.

No glass, all plastic and trim must be removed. NO Mirrors.

Pump gas only, No additives, No dyed fuels.

Fuel system will be inspected.

Roll cage must be a 4-point minimum, mounted in a safe manner, with an X or approved cross brace in the rear. Must also have a cross bar in front. (3) door bars on the left and (2) on the right side are to be mounted securely to roll cage. There must be a bar mounted to the roll cage behind the seat. Again, aluminum racing seats are highly recommended.Racing seat recommended or safe mounted bucket seat (If using bucket

seat, a bar must be mounted behind it.

Weight may be added but must be painted white with car # on them. Fastened with 7/16”

bolts or larger. Weight must be in block form minimum 5 lbs maximum 25lbs blocks.

May use spring rubbers, must be securely fastened.

Doors must be securely fastened shut. NO Rub rails mounted outside of car.

Master shutoff switch for electrical fuel pump mandatory, must also be brightly marked.

Safety, Seat Belts, Seats, Helmets, Window Nets, All seats must be made of aluminum or
steel and approved by Officials.
All seats will be required to be mounted to the frame or the roll cage of the car. All cars will be required to be equipped with a minimum 5-point harness. All belts will be required to be mounted to the frames of the car or to the roll cage.
Helmets should be of full-face shield type and are subject to inspection.
All cars will be required to use a full size window net in the drivers window at all times. Fire resistant shoes & gloves recommended.
Fire resistant driver’s suit required.
************************************************** *********************
No aftermarket mechanical parts allowed, No Turbo’s, No performance enhancement parts allowed.
************************************************** *********************
Intake manifold vacuum and cranking cylinder pressures must remain within stock specifications.

No locked or welded drive axles.
Windshield must have protective screen for driver’s side. ¼” screen mesh with a minimum (4) ½ “bars behind mesh.
Stock Dash required, be sure air bags are de-activted.
Battery must be securely bolted in position and if in the driver's compartment must be in a

marine type box securely fastened with a minimum 1" by 1/8" thick strap over battery.

Tow hooks front & rear 3/8” cable minimum, Rule Will Be Enforced.

No Accuras,

only 1.6 single over head cam Honda models allowed.

OEM size tires on car.

Car number must be on the front of the car 6” minimum.

No traction control devises allowed.
Officials may remove any component from vehicle for further inspection at any time.

Luckynumber5 · 09-14-2007, 04:41 PM

Philly a 3s-ge head swap isn't going to make the best power for the 5s-fe. THe FE head is also not that restrictive.

For one, the 5s-fe is a poor reving engine, it has an awkward rod to crank ratio and isn't suited for high rpm power. The engine was designed for low rpm torque though, and it does a good job at it. But I don't know what kind of power you need for the circle tracks.

http://www.coltcams.com/ is a great place to get modified FE cams for Toyota engines. They can do all sorts of neat tricks like staggering the valves and such.

First off opening the head up is in order, but don't just port for maximum flow, you need velocity for optimal power. An experienced machinist knows what to do and it will help greatly if you have a spare 5s-fe head he can butcher up to see exactly how far he can grind into the head. If you have a spare head you can also see just how far you can shave the head to increase the CR, but this will defeat the quench area of the head so more CR may not mean more power in this case.

If I were you I would also look into a Celica ST with the 4a-fe engine, it's more suited to high rpm operation even though you are going back down to 1.6 liters, the top end is easily built up, and not to mention the ST Celicas are lighter than most GT and GT-S Celicas.

PhillyDRFT · 09-14-2007, 05:11 PM

I never said it was the best idea for 5sfe power, just that it opens up more doors than you might think.

I do agree with you on the bottom end. Although there is little to no support in terms of a re ballanced crank ect. It's not that bad off since there are a handfull of 5sgte's. Using the 2.2l block in 3sgte powered MR2's and Alltracs. The 5sfe really is just not the engine to make power on but it's doable.

In terms of a machined head. Ported decked and tested in a flow bench. I think you'll net a better result on a ge head. Depending on who is doing your work ofcorse. Just my opinion. But like I said the GE head swap is a big wiring job to swap over all of the sensors. The pro's may outweigh the cons.

I've known a few people running modified heads on the 5sfe. It will make it more responsive but all of them have said it was a waste of money. It's not a drastic improvement for the ammount of work that went into it.

The GE heads are more of a true twin cam design. They have wide angle valves and a longer duration cam setup. It also leaves you open for a handfull of intake manifold options. Although like mentioned it's there to make use of the higher rpm's.

The cult cams idea with the Tri flow cut sounds really interesting. I've never seen it before. To my knowledge the only 5sfe cam that was offered was webcams regrind that just added more duration. No lift. Interesting idea though. I would like to see that on a modified FE head. The 5sfe is already a 9.5:1 CR.

So far speeking from my experience. and from other 5sfe owners the best bang for your buck on head modification for the FE is a simple port and gasket match. and a basic head rebuild. I have no idea with the coltcams though, but I am interested.

If you said it's a coupe GT-S it's probly a GT-X or just a GT, GT-S only came in a liftback. I do agree with Lucky number 5 on the ST being a better choice but since you already have something that you've been working on. I didn't mention it. Sounds like talking somene out of ordering a pizza once it's on the table.

If you're gutting the interior and taking all the glass out, you can still shave off even more weight from the unibody. You'll be pretty light. and have a noticable difference in response. Weighting the back to keep stability is upto you and how you drive though.

How big is the track? Is this your first time running there? and do you know how extensive the ref check is? I think with just a lot of minor stuff you'll be able to compete just fine.

Edit: My experience with the FE head was on a 5sfte project. Hence my bias to thinking the FE head is far too restrictive. I do believe it can be worked with. I've just seen limited success with it is all.

Pineapple · 09-14-2007, 05:23 PM

Like I said swapping head will result in lower compression which is bad for NA.
Also you won't get 5HP from a GTS ECU, they're all the same.

Webcam is the company you want to contact for camshafts. Don't even try to raise rev for the 5S, its a stroker it won't rev period. You can get custom pistons to increase compression. Header give better mid-high end. Port and polish the head would help also. Standalone ECU to better tune fuel and ignition for max power.

PhillyDRFT · 09-14-2007, 05:29 PM

I stand corrected, for 92-93 they used the same ecu for all 5sfe's

Although the 1990-1991 Celica GT was 130hp 140ftlbs , the GT-S was 135hp 145ft lbs. Due to a more agressive fuel map.

I'm not claiming to be a know it all or anything, I'm not pulling this stuff out of my ass it has reasoning behind it.

Luckynumber5 · 09-14-2007, 05:43 PM

I don't think he has the time to work out a standalone though, don't really know what else to say that hasn't already been said so best of luck