1992 Celica front sway bar mount issue

[anunnaki11]

Has anyone else had their front swaybar mountings totally rust away? The part where the two bolts bolt to the u brackets on my 1992 Celica are totally rusted away. A bolt on each of the two brackets broke off while I was trying to remove them. Anybody have any experience with this problem? Is there a way to fix this?

[93celicaconv]

Yep, I have a 90 & 91 Celica that this same thing happened to. I think on both Celicas, only the passenger side mount rusted away. I think it is important to have the sway bars in place, based upon an experience I had with a Bonneville when a front sway bar link was broke.

Anyway, I had a local body shop weld in new metal with a welded in nut to replace the rusted away mount on both of my cars. Had them rustproof and undercoat them extremely carefully as well. They have been working good for years.

A 93 Celica convertible I also have never developed this problem, though. Likely the original owners (from South Carolina) didn't have much salt on the roads in winter either. And from the number of miles on it, they likely stored it over winter too.

[Murgatroy]

There are several folks I know that have had this issue. Most of us removed our swaybars.

I speak from experience.

I removed mine. Never looked back. I find the understeer is gone, the car has a more balanced feeling and wants to oversteer more than not when pushed to the edge. I find that it is easier to correct an oversteer at speed than to let off and adjust for understeer.

It is common practice for auto-crossers to remove their front sway bars as well for reasons mentioned above.

It can be fixed, but a lot of shops don't want to touch a unibody car and start welding on the faux frame rail, and if the rust has gone on too long (and the swaybar thumping the floor pan too much) there won't be anything left to weld to, thus requiring a whole new mount welded in.

[93celicaconv]

I'm a bit confused, Murgatroy. I don't know of many cars made in the last 20 years that don't have sway bars. With all the pressure to sell cars in volume, manufacturers are figuring out ways to make good cars that people enjoy driving for as little cost as possible. Despite the cost pressures, these sway bars remain in all the cars.

I had a sway bar link broken on a Bonneville once and, in driving over a small depression in a highway off ramp while turning slightly left at about 60 MPH, I almost lost control of the car because of that sway bar link. After fixing the link and repeating that driving experience again exactly the same way, the car was completely under control going over that same depression at the same speed and same slight left turn. That sold me on the value of sway bars.

So if sway bars aren't a good thing to have in cars, then why do auto manufacturers go through the expense of putting them in?

[Murgatroy]

I am not saying sway bars are not a good thing to have in cars.

When you make a car, you have to make it for the lowest common denominator. 80% of the population wants a car that will get them back and forth to where they are going. They don't care about speed, handling or the like. Aesthetics is what matters. As long as the car goes when they step on the go pedal and stops when they step on the whoa pedal, they are happy.

Then there are 20% that like to go fast and handle. We are the minority. When you put an exhaust on your car, or an intake, is that a necessary part for the operation of the vehicle? Didn't the part from the factory work just as well? Did you put it on there for a performance increase? Ah... There we go. The factory didn't squeeze every bit of horsepower out of the car before it left the factory did it? That is up to you.

When the car leaves the factory it is expected to go to a clueless commuter. The clueless commuter doesn't want their car to oversteer, or understeer, they want it to turn. However, in the hands of an enthusiast, that 20% I mentioned, they want something more from the car. Of those 20% a few are willing to try something different and unorthodox to get those results. Removing the front swaybar is part of that.

The difference with your Bonneville is the weight and suspension firmness throw in a completely different design and purpose and that is where the issue stems from. The Bonneville is a much heavier car, tipping in at 4,000lbs give or take. A prepped Celica can weigh ~2000lbs. The suspension, even stock, on a Celica is not set for a super comfortable bump free ride, like a Bonneville. Now, if your Bonneville was a RWD Bonneville it is too easy for the torque to lift the front of your vehicle when accelerating (something drag racers depend on for weight transfer, and yet another reason to remove a front swaybar) however in a daily driving situation, not exactly desired. If your Bonneville was FWD, that is considerably more weight over the front than in a Celica as well.

As for cars coming with them... Welll... Lots of cars didn't come with them. I have an AE92 `Rolla right now that didn't come with a front or rear swaybar. The MkI MR2 didn't come with a rear sway bar. Very few cars meant for commuting came with rear swaybars.

Now, with all that said for my side of the argument, I will give you this. I am an experienced driver. I have been doing this for 20 years. I beat on my Celica harder than nearly anyone I know, save for KoreanJoey, who is an SCCA AutoX teacher and division champion. Joey is the guy that suggested I remove my front bar and see how it goes. I do have a heavily modified suspension, from coilovers to much wider and stiffer tires with nearly no sidewall. The only roll my car has in a corner is initiated from the lack of a swaybar. I use that roll to take it to an oversteer situation as opposed to an understeer situation. It is my experience that oversteer is easier to correct at speed, and maintain speed than understeer where you must brake to get the car back under control.

Again, the sway bars are for the sheeple. It is safer to make the car 'too' safe, as opposed to allowing the driver to discover the limits of the car.

[93celicaconv]

I think you have provided the disclaimer necessary in this thread to support your suggestion, and put it into context quite well (you have a heavily modified suspension, you drive cars hard, and you are experienced with how cars respond to your modifications). I'm not saying I agree with your recommendation (in fact, I don't), but with the context stated supporting your recommendation, you have provided the necessary information needed for a reader to draw their own conclusion.

And my Bonneville reference was that of a 1992 SSEi (supercharged FWD), and yes, the front is very heavy, especially with the larger, beefier transmission provided on supercharged engines. All factory, no mods. It did have a heavier duty suspension that typical Bonnevilles of that year did not have. And it was extremely dangerous to run wthout its front sway bar connected (via that broken link).

My point originally is the audience that will view these threads. Without the frame of reference you now provided, a person can read this, draw a conclusion that is universal (sway bars aren't needed) and provide that conclusion to someone with a completely different setup - which could be disasterous. Your initial posts didn't provide a frame of reference for your recommendation, so someone could take that recommendation as a universal recommendation and "remove the sway bar from their Bonneville" because of it, which could result in a serious incident (based on my experience).

So thanks for putting clarity around the frame of reference for your recommendation. I think this will help future readers in making a good judgment around your recommendation.

[Murgatroy]

I understand where you are coming from, and I should have put that in my original post.

As for your Bonneville. I have a Regal GS (3800 Series II Supercharged) and it supposedly has the Gran Touring suspension. The suspension on that car is still way too weak to contemplate removing the swaybar from. Even in stock form the suspension leaves way too much body roll and lean. Other than the engine, I despise the car.

The Celica is a completely different platform, it is unfair to compare the handling characteristics of one to the other.

[93celicaconv]

Agreed!

Good job, Murgatroy!!!