Hello. I have a '97 Camry with the 5S-FE. Yes, I do know that this is the Celica board, but the Camry section seems like a ghost town when it comes to performance questions. And since the 5S-FE was also used in the Celica, maybe you guys can help me.
I've been looking into some performance upgrades for some time now because this little 4-cylinder has potential. I have not applied many (or any) of the performance upgrades yet because of their obvious cost. I'm going to completely replace my entire exhaust system with high-performance headers, cat-less downpipe, high-flow resonator, and the muffler off a Supra. I am also going to make my own cold-air intake with individual tubing pieces from Spectre and a K&N or AEM filter (suggestions on the filter?). Down the road, I may turbocharge it, but that is more of a dream right now.
tl;dr - Custom air intake & exhaust system
Now, for my question: What would you suggest upgrading/replacing on the 5S-FE to make it able to handle more power and to keep it reliable with the extra strain? I have read that some of its components are a bit 'weaker' (understandable for an economy engine) and may not be able to handle too much added power.
The 5sfe is tough It really is built for fule economy If i were going for power however i would blueprint the engine balance the conecting rods and crankshaft bore the cylinder walls 40 thousanths oversize replace the stock pistons with forged pistos balance them and refine the head
Its not not going to give you tha huge power gain but youl have a better than stock 5sfe with more displacement
google "blueprinting an engine" youl find you can get more power from that than any cold air intake/exaust combonation
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MAY AN EMPTY PARTS BOX BE MY WINNING TROPHY
The 5sfe is tough It really is built for fule economy If i were going for power however i would blueprint the engine balance the conecting rods and crankshaft bore the cylinder walls 40 thousanths oversize replace the stock pistons with forged pistos balance them and refine the head
Its not not going to give you tha huge power gain but youl have a better than stock 5sfe with more displacement
google "blueprinting an engine" youl find you can get more power from that than any cold air intake/exaust combonation
Thanks for the suggestion!
I think I'll start off with the easier upgrades for now (intake and exhaust) and then do the more involved things, like blueprinting. I'm just now learning about working on cars so I want to make sure I start out slow and learn all I can before I start disassembling my 5SFE
I think I may wait until after blueprinting and upgrading the internals before I go strapping a turbo to my 4-cylinder. However, the exhaust and intake work will not only bump up the horsepower, but also be better overall for the engine. It stands to reason that the less restrictive both systems are, the better it is on the engine as a whole. Well, at least it stands to my reason.
One side question: is there any real way to go about upgrading my intake manifold and/or throttle body? Also, if the intake manifold is replaced/upgraded, will timings, fuel-air mixtures, etc. need to be changed? The latter may be a dumb question, but it was told to me by my dad and I wanted a second opinion on whether it is true or not.
I saw a tutorial on the internet where someone cut ~1.5" off the end of their manifold (the end that connects to the throttle) and welded in a section from the 1MZ-FE manifold. Purpose being that the 5S-FE has a 2.5" diameter intake inlet, but expands to 3" at the actual intake. The 1MZ-FE has a 3" diameter inlet, so that when welded in place, the 5SFE doesn't bottle-neck.
Try a tech school if you want to really get into engines. People spend thousands replaceing parts that are Perfectly fine.
Your best bet now would be a full tune up (if you havent allready) that will restore some power And stick with the recomended plugs/wires and oil ive had best preformance out of stock style nkg plugs gaped to spec And never noticed a diffrence in synthetic oil (except my light wallet)
as for the cold air intake its allready there it just dosent have a cone filter and isnt loud If you take the air cleaner box out youl see a pipe the runs down into the wheel well to catch "cold air" BUT it is restrictive. So if your going to build one Use common sence bigger tubeing bigger filter and somthing sheilding the heat from the engine and make provisions fot the mass air flo sensor
On the exaust try somthing like a flowmaster or somthing with a little backpressure if you really want the "fartcan" look and sound get one with a scilencer its worth it if the cops give you a noise citatation ALSO you could deleate that pre muffler that would give it more of a ronchy sound
as for the intake manafold get a gasket set and clean it that will do wonders. the manafold itself isnt really the big preformance isue its the head itself it really isnt engineered for power but for economy...Most of the computer/sensors change the fuel and timeing should anything minor change Thats where plug in tuners come into play But if you dont know anything about engines youll probly do some seirous damage
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MAY AN EMPTY PARTS BOX BE MY WINNING TROPHY
Your best bet now would be a full tune up (if you havent allready) that will restore some power And stick with the recomended plugs/wires and oil ive had best preformance out of stock style nkg plugs gaped to spec And never noticed a diffrence in synthetic oil (except my light wallet)
I recently replaced the plugs and wires with NGK Double-Platinum and NGK wires. I was considering Iridium, but I only know how to gap the standard spec plugs. I'm not sure of how to effectively gap hotter plugs.
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Originally Posted by asphalt victory
On the exaust try somthing like a flowmaster or somthing with a little backpressure if you really want the "fartcan" look and sound get one with a scilencer its worth it if the cops give you a noise citatation ALSO you could deleate that pre muffler that would give it more of a ronchy sound
I was going to go to my local junkyard and pull the muffler off of a Supra. I don't want the fartcan/ricer sound, but I do want better flow and performance. With the Supra muffler, I'll get better performance, but still a (somewhat) stock sound. I may also still hunt around for a good muffler with low noise.
I'm going with high-flow headers, resonator, a new oxygen sensor, better muffler, and straight piping for all the in-betweens. Oh, and there won't be a catalytic converter anywhere on my new system Kentucky is nice and lenient on their emissions standards and the cat. conv. does nothing but further restrict the flow.
Quote:
Originally Posted by asphalt victory
as for the intake manafold get a gasket set and clean it that will do wonders. the manafold itself isnt really the big preformance isue its the head itself it really isnt engineered for power but for economy.
turb0+good tuning shop+standalone engine management=reliable power from 5S engines.
By standalone engine management, do you mean the OBDII tuners that change the ECU around?
Which reminds of of one other quick question for anyone who knows: I was looking into an OBDII-to-USB cable where I could use a program on my computer to tweak what I need to. The USB adapter is only $50, whereas the units with a handheld control module are closer to $400. With the USB it is only a matter of finding the right program.
Am I right in thinking this?
I asked a few people and they all said that as long as you have the right program, there is no difference. In fact, it stands to reason that you would actually be able to do more with the program than with the handheld device. I have learned quite a bit about computers over the years and from explanations I have read, for computer savvy folks, the ECU is similar to the registry in Windows. It contains code with values attached to them. Changing those values will change the way it behaves/regulates the engine.
Am I right in thinking this as well?
Thank you again for everyone's help (and hopefully continued help )
My Camry's ECU *specifically* is not able to be altered?
I'm not saying you're wrong, its just that I was under the impression that all ECU's could have their settings changed. I believe I remember seeing ODBII tuners that are compatible with my Camry. Although those could have been products marked as 'universal'.
closed ecu, ROM is not writeable once written and is soldered to the board not to be replaced...even if someone made one to replace it with. No one does. You can run a piggy back but will be fighting with the factory fuel trims and sensor limitations...
Now, for my question: What would you suggest upgrading/replacing on the 5S-FE to make it able to handle more power and to keep it reliable with the extra strain? I have read that some of its components are a bit 'weaker' (understandable for an economy engine) and may not be able to handle too much added power.
5sfe's can take a lot before you need to start upgrading things but their main enemies are bad tuning and high revs. With your current list of mods there should be no problem and longevity and reliability will not be changed.
Also if you just want a little more power then upgrade the cams to a Webcam 294 or equivalent spec from Delta Cams (ranges of 218-222 duration, .310-.330" lift, 108-110 lobe centers should be close). The cams shift your torque to the left by 500rpms and give you 5 more peak tq and about 22 at red line. Horsepower increases by 14 at peak and 30 at red line. That is just with an exhaust so if you also add a good header then expect about 5-10 more. If the cams are installed correctly following the instructions in the Toyota service manual it will be just as reliable as a stock 5sfe. Also those cams specs do not require any tuning whatsoever to be safe if you stick with the stock intake manifold. Which leads me to the answer to your other question. If you were to just change the manifold and TB by themselves and stayed with stock cams you would not have to retune but with the cams you will. The power gains from doing that though are not worth the money though unless you also upgrade the cams.
As was said there are no offerings for retuning the stock 5sfe ECU currently. But 5sfe's, especially rev2s, work really well with piggybacks when running NA.
If you choose to turbo in the future make sure you focus on the tuning aspects the most. A piggyback can be used in this case too but is not as flexible as a full programmable engine management system. When properly sized injectors and tuning are used on a 5sfe it makes a very good turbo motor, almost as if it was made for it. There are some limits though:
- The rod bolts weren't made to be revved mush past 6500rpms so if you build a motor to do that, use 3sgte rods. With a small-medium sized turbo and stock cams that is not a problem.
- The piston ring end gap is not large enough to take a huge amount of heat so 240whp is about the limit unless you increase it.
- Lastly if you use a piggyback then the stock ECU has a limited range of adjustment so that limits the size of injectors you can run. 460cc is the biggest anyone has gotten away with and idle AFRs are around 10.5:1. That limits the 5sfe/piggyback combo to about 300whp.
mrturrari, great post. would love to see more detail. I would love a comprehensive how-to for getting 300whp. where do i find out more?
Comprehensive could be a little difficult... there are a lot of ways to get 300whp. The simplest way would be to turbo your 5sfe and use a piggyback with 460cc RX7 injectors and a 3sgte MAP sensor. If you have a rev2 5sfe with the knock sensor you can even use a fuel only piggyback that just alters the MAP signal and let timing be done by the ECU. There is one thing you should do though if you push past about 240whp and that is file the rings so you have a larger ring end gap (use 3sgte spec). That will pretty much mean rebuilding the engine so most opt to upgrade other things while they are in there like the rod bolts. Cams also help you to make more power with a little less boost. Presure2 did it this way and was able to get over 300whp on race gas.
Then you just tune it on a dyno or with a wideband on the street for a good turbo friendly AFR like 11:1. Getting a stand-alone ECU is even better so you can tune without worrying that the stock ECU is going to add timing or do something unexpected. With a piggyback you always have to watch that you don't go over your max boost level which for 300whp and stock cams and 460cc injectors is about 19-20psi and that also means you will be on race gas. With a stand-alone EMS you can use much larger injectors and have a safety margin.
Also if you are like me and want to make power at lower boost, you can replace the rods with 3sgte ones (thereby getting rid of the 5sfe rod bolts), add cams, valve springs, a custom intake manifold and TB, and use a bigger turbo. That way you can rev higher and make 300whp and still use pump gas. You need to overclock your stock ECU or get a stand-alone EMS to do this.
There is lots of info in other forums, especially the MR2 ones although you may have to wade through all the 5sfe bashing to find it.
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5S-FE Tuning...without blowing up the engine
Kentucky is nice and lenient on their emissions standards and the cat. conv. does nothing but further restrict the flow.
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