Need More Power Help!!!! (5sfe)

[Flv1333]

What's up.

I have a 94 Celica GT 2.2 liter. (5SFE engine). I would like some tips on making it have more power Without and engine swap or any major modification (like cams and such) I already have a cold air intake.... but i want to make it fast..er... Thanks for the help

[Kwanza]

Originally posted by Flv1333
What's up.

I have a 94 Celica GT 2.2 liter. (5SFE engine). I would like some tips on making it have more power Without and engine swap or any major modification (like cams and such) I already have a cold air intake.... but i want to make it fast..er... Thanks for the help

Bolt-on mods just don't make a lot of power. If you don't want to do cams... you're pretty much out of luck.

Nitrious is a cheap alternative... but's pretty lame IMO...

[silverstreakin]

nitrous is a really cheap hp alternative. its been around for a long long time. f and f has put this ricer stigma on it...but the fact remains, that for the money, its the best hp gain out there

[Kwanza]

Originally posted by silverstreakin
nitrous is a really cheap hp alternative. its been around for a long long time. f and f has put this ricer stigma on it...but the fact remains, that for the money, its the best hp gain out there

I call it lame cause it lasts what... a few seconds at a time? I'd spend my money elsewhere... ;]

[toylover]

Originally posted by Kwanza
Bolt-on mods just don't make a lot of power. If you don't want to do cams... you're pretty much out of luck.

Nitrious is a cheap alternative... but's pretty lame IMO...

Question for you.

Since the 5SFE is built with economy and torque in mind, is there really a point in doing just cams? The rod:stroke ratio, and design of the head make me wonder if its worth changing the powerband unless you dive into headwork and maybe de-stroking it along with bumping up the redline a fair bit. Ultimately more expensive than a 3SGE or GTE swap without the gains.

[TubRog5]

If its just a little more you want, then you can just do all the basic boltons. If you want a lot more, then it'll take major modifications.

[Kwanza]

Originally posted by toylover
Question for you.

Since the 5SFE is built with economy and torque in mind, is there really a point in doing just cams? The rod:stroke ratio, and design of the head make me wonder if its worth changing the powerband unless you dive into headwork and maybe de-stroking it along with bumping up the redline a fair bit. Ultimately more expensive than a 3SGE or GTE swap without the gains.

Cams can alter the powerband like you say, but for the most part, it all depends on the profile. I'm not talking about a really agressive profile that will eliminate the low-end, or anything that is beyond the very modest valvetrain. I'm talking about a slightly more agressive profile to better the top-end power... Webcam does a 5SFE regrind that does wonders with good tuning. The stock cam profiles are too mild especially for the very modest redline. The torque drop-off is very significant after its peak, and can drop off as much as 40 ftlbs of torque before redline (between the peak at 4500-4800 rpms and redline). Slightly more agressive cams can alter that and increase overall poerformance all the way to fuel-cut. Mild-Moderate cams usually don't require the engine to rev beyond anything stock...

[toylover]

I understand how it all works, and I know that cams don't necessarily raise the redline and that the 5SFE cam is a super mild grind. What I was asking was, is there a point in doing cams and not raising the redline.

Lemme try and rephrase, the 5SFE has an oversquare bore:stroke ratio which means that it will make roughly the same amount or more torque than HP. In addition, the head flows very poorly, not because Toyota did a shitty job, but because they had economy in mind opposed to performance like the true Twincam engines. Even the intake manifold has super long runners, again for low-end. So basically what I'm asking is, is it worth modding the 5SFE at all unless you address the major obstacles standing in the way of performance?

Its an economy engine, trying to give it the characteristics of a high-reving, sporting 4 banger seems like a real bitch and more expensive than its worth.

[Pineapple]

I was told not to touch the cams unless I want to mess with the ECU. You'll lose idle quality with cam. Cams are so expensive, I don't know if a really mild cam worth the trouble at all.
You mod the engine to match its design spec.
5S-FE is a torque engine, not a high reving high HP engine. Keep it like that. Do mods that'll keep its power band and rpm. Don't try to rev it high and free flow everything too much. P&P will do wonder with it but don't open exhaust port too much or at all. Turbo it will be nice, 2.2L high torque engine.

[Kwanza]

Originally posted by toylover
I understand how it all works, and I know that cams don't necessarily raise the redline and that the 5SFE cam is a super mild grind. What I was asking was, is there a point in doing cams and not raising the redline.

Lemme try and rephrase, the 5SFE has an oversquare bore:stroke ratio which means that it will make roughly the same amount or more torque than HP. In addition, the head flows very poorly, not because Toyota did a shitty job, but because they had economy in mind opposed to performance like the true Twincam engines. Even the intake manifold has super long runners, again for low-end. So basically what I'm asking is, is it worth modding the 5SFE at all unless you address the major obstacles standing in the way of performance?

Its an economy engine, trying to give it the characteristics of a high-reving, sporting 4 banger seems like a real bitch and more expensive than its worth.

I tend to agree... if you've ever seen dyno runs of built 5SFE's... they're pretty modest. The point is, camshafts will make power with good tuning. It's not necessary to raise the redline, or modifiy anything, although mods like that will fully utilize the camshafts, it's not abosolutely necessary. The 5SFE block, like you say, is an oversquared design with a very very mild valvetrain, so revving on the stock internals is not gonna be very safe or a realistic option... but again, like I said above, it all depends on the cam profile. You can run a mild profile and make power like I mentioned. I was trying to explain, the stock 5SFE quits making power dramatically after 5000 rpms. A pair of cams can dramatically alter the powerband shift it a little higher at least until its redline/fuelcut. Camshafts do not necessarily change the engine's characteristics. The dynos I've seen of n/a modified 5SFE's still made a LOT of low-end to mid-range torque and STILL lost power on the top. It all depends on the cam profile being run. As far as it building a 5SFE... I personally wouldn't, cause I don't like that engine all too much, but if the owner wants to go ahead and do it, I'll pass on the bit of info I know... I personally believe you can make more power out of a 7AFE than a 5SFE...

I was told not to touch the cams unless I want to mess with the ECU. You'll lose idle quality with cam. Cams are so expensive, I don't know if a really mild cam worth the trouble at all.
You mod the engine to match its design spec.
5S-FE is a torque engine, not a high reving high HP engine. Keep it like that. Do mods that'll keep its power band and rpm. Don't try to rev it high and free flow everything too much. P&P will do wonder with it but don't open exhaust port too much or at all. Turbo it will be nice, 2.2L high torque engine.

All depends on the cam profile. We're talking about a pretty mild cam profile here, so the idle is not gonna be too loopy, nor will the ecu need to be altered (piggybacked)... nor will there be any significant torque losses throughout the entire powerband. Again I'll say, it all depends on the camshaft profile.

[Pineapple]

I'm rebuilding and P&P a 5S-FE. Beside piston and cams, what else you suggest? I'm not looking for a high power monster just a better NA 5S-FE at resonable cost. Oh, I'm trying to do the rebuild myself

[YangS]

If your looking to break into the 15's without using too much $$$, and drive a 91-99 celica gt/gts then I sugguest you buy new spark plugs, adjust your timing belt, and if your a college student like me then I take it to the school shop and adjust the airflow with the computers they have at college for free.

This is a helpful way, I ran a 15.78 just doing this without exhaust and brand name intake.

[toylover]

Originally posted by Pineapple
I'm rebuilding and P&P a 5S-FE. Beside piston and cams, what else you suggest? I'm not looking for a high power monster just a better NA 5S-FE at resonable cost. Oh, I'm trying to do the rebuild myself

More details please, what parts, why and how are you gonna tune it?

[TRDcelicaGTFOUR]

More airflow = more power. As you increase the amount of air going into the motor, you must also allow it out. Hence why an intake together with an exhaust work hand in hand.

Forced induction is the obvious solution fr large hp gains, yet you can still get a reasonable hp gain with intake, exhaust, cams, etc. It all depends on how much your willing to spend. If your not planning on spending a lot, then your very limited to the hp gain. Intake and exhaust will get you a measly 3-6 hp to the wheels, depending on how its put together. Its not very much, and you only have to spend around $1000CAD for that. The car gets a good sound as well as better airflow with just those two. But as mentioned before, you gotta pay to play. Dont waste the money if your not gonna go all out. 5S-FE is an economy motor, always will be, so theres no point in thinking its gonna go fast with no money invested.

[Pineapple]

I just want a better 5S-FE for everyday use. Not for race or breaking 1/4 mile record. I'll probably use over size valve with the P&P. Maybe high CR piston next year. Gonna use a 3S-GE stock 4-2-1 header, yea the flangle bolt-on might need some mod for the down pipe.
I'll polish the piston top to mirror finish to prevent build up and reflect heat.
Know any place to grind cams? I'll consider one for good idle and mid-range gain. I'm driving auto so can't use any higher rpm.
I've SAFC to adjust fuel if needed.