My 08 Certified Matrix....bought about 2 months ago with 10500 miles on it...drifts to the left at highway speeds. I travel alot and notice it on different highways.
Fist dealer attempt was a service bulletin in which they flip the front tires, check to see if drift moves other direction, then swap one with the rear.....this seemed to help for a while, but now it is back. (note- not the dealer I bought it from)
Had it back there a couple weeks ago....they checked alignment...supposedly all in spec.....I PAID them to go ahead and do the Road Force check.....wheels and tires supposedly in best possible configuration.
Oddly, when I went for the test drive with the mechanic prior to the last visit...it did not seem to pull. (nor did it pull when me and the wife test drove it prior to purchase). I'm starting to think it has something to do with whether or not there are two persons in the car. (I'm not huge,...maybe 210lbs)
Scheduled again this weekend with the actual dealer I purchased the car from. Went to the other dealer due to close proximity. Will definetely sit in the center of the back seat to see if this has an effect on the drift.
Do I have any recourse if they can't fix the drift? How will I know if they just greatly increase the camber or something else to compensate....should I demand eventual tire replacement if they try this?C ar fax showed no accidents but I know this isnt always true......Lemon?.....?
No...it's not the tire pressure. That was the first thing I checked. I've read a bit about some complaints of this drifting issue mostly regarding camry's...on a few other boards....need to search this board.
Had the alignment checked at the dealer I bought it from (had to be persistant as they at first were reluctant to do another "warrantied" alignment).
They tweaked the caster and toe a bit. It was well within spec....but the numbers were definetely not perfect so they tried to get them a bit closer....seems someone ought to be able to get them even closer to dead-on...but maybe not.
Here's some of the specs:
Front
Left Camber: -0.8
Left Caster: 2.8
Left toe: 0.00
Right Camber: -0.5
Right Caster: 3.1
Right toe: -0.001
Cross Camber: -0.3
Cross Caster: -0.3
Total Toe: -0.01
Rear
Left Camber-1.3
Left toe: 0.24
Right Camber: -1.0
Right toe: 0.19
Total Toe: 0.43 (might this be enough to cause the left drift at 70mph?)
Thrust Angle: 0.02
I love this car and I can't believe I'm having this issue. I can live with it....but its just the idea that I have to maintain rightward pressue on the steering wheel every time I venture into the left lane especially....that's something I would expect out of one of the many beaters I've driven in 24 years....not an $18K relatively new toyota! Hell, my 34 year old fiat hasn't had front end work in 20 years and it doesn't drift!!! Lemon Law anyone? It doesn't take an overly imaginative mind, nor an over-unattentive driver to imagine a scenario where the car drifts into the oncoming lane....or God forbid an oncoming car.....Class action lawsuit anyone?
In reading up on others complaints about the "Toyota Drift", it seems that most get the run around on this issue ("its the road crown", "all toyotas drive this way", this amount of drift is acceptable")....some have gotten it fixed only when they have had a Factory Technician dispatched to repair their car.
I'm from the Corolla section, and you asked there for input on your problem here.
I have an '07 Corolla LE...same rear twist-beam suspension. I have an Alldata account and checked the rear alignment specs for you.
Your toe:
L: 0.24
R: 0.19
T: 0.43
Allowable (at least on an '07 Corolla, but I imagine the same for an '08 Matrix):
0.26 degrees, plus/minus 0.26 degrees. So in essence, 0.00 degrees to 0.52 degrees. It does not give an individual wheel toe spec...just the total toe spec. It appears that you are barely within spec there.
Both rear wheels are toed in. The left is slightly more toed than the right. In theory, this would want to rotate the car a bit left. I don't like Toyota only specifying "total toe". Because you could have the left toed in at 0.25 degrees, and the right toed out at -0.25 degrees, and your total toe is 0 (within spec). But you'd have a rear alignment that really wanted to rotate the car to the left.
Are you saying it never does it when there are two persons in the car? That actually makes sense, especially if you are over 200 lbs. That is enough weight on one side that it might make a car with sensitive steering drift.
On a related note, I observed that my Corolla is much more sensitive to the camber of the road than any other car I previously drove. When I first drove it, I actually thought it had bad alignment, because it pulled to the right. Then I drove to the opposite side of the road, and it equally pulled to the left.
Thanks Jason. I can't say that it does not drift whatsoever with two adults in the car....but certainly on a really flat un-crownded road (like the new road near the friggin' dealer when we test drove it!) it will definetely ride more straight with two. When I rode with the mechanic, he's pretty "rotund" at about 300 lbs. He said that this shouldn't be an issue, at least not on a car that has no alignment issues. Of course I think they will say anything. But, this is why I rode along in the center of the rear seat and it did drift a tad for him.
Any idea if the shimming I've read about will help? I know the rear (according to toyota anyways) is not technically adjustable. I think that was on Edmunds....people were complaining about really premature, repeatative, and excessive tire wear on the matrix (mostly inner tread wear all the eway around). There was discussion of the rear being adjusted somewhat by adding alignment shims....not sure if this was for toe or camber or both. I will press the service manager on this as I really think the rear is the problem.
There was also talk of a Moog kit available at Napa I think, that gives more camber on the front. I believe it is basically slightly longer bolts. This is interesting,. because when we had this issue on the corolla...the service manager mentioned possibly needing to order longer camber bolts as if this was a common practice....
On a related note, I observed that my Corolla is much more sensitive to the camber of the road than any other car I previously drove. When I first drove it, I actually thought it had bad alignment, because it pulled to the right. Then I drove to the opposite side of the road, and it equally pulled to the left.
was that road surface completely flat,evenly level on both directions ?
Do you see any wear on the tires. If there is none than it means its not the alignment issue. Did you get the tire balanced or re-checked.
As you said and what came to my mind that if two persons are sitting in the front seats you might not notice that much but when you are alone you might feel more. Ask your wife or someone to sit in the back seat and see if you feel the same or not.
Get the tire balancing checked. Find some Matrix owners and ask them about this or other issues. My Corolla got some alignment issues and they had to install shims in both the rear wheels to get it aligned.
Last thing, Toyota is a great name but now due to its name in reliability they are producing cheap cars in the sense of aerodynamics. My new Corolla is much owrse than old Ford Escort when compared for noise we get in car when windows are open and stability when making a sharp turn.
If there is some other highly technical issue like manufacturing fault than you would be lucky if they solve it.
I've never noticed any difference in vehicle track with one occupant vs. two. The rear axle itself is not adjustable, but as noted, alignment can be influenced somewhat via shims. I believe these go behind the wheel hub, and work to "angle" the hub back in the right (correct) direction. If the alignment is far enough out, the proper repair procedure is replacing the entire axle beam.
I've read about some issues with defective rear axle beams on these cars. Maybe the parts weren't aligned just right in the jig at the factory or something. Does anyone happen to know who Toyota's supplier is for the axle beams? Or do they really fabricate these parts themselves?
If you're really bothered by it, I would just pay the 50 bucks and go have the alignment checked by a third party. Tell them you have a tracking issue and are having a hard time with the dealership and would like the best alignment check they can give you, with a print-out. If it jives with Toyota's data, you can probably be sure that the alignment is not the issue (again, according to Toyota, it is within spec). If the third party says it's out of spec, take that print-out to the dealer and at least have them re-check the alignment with their machine again. Even though these machines are pretty good, there is still the element of human error.
Your note that after they rotated the tires, the issue was gone for a while, seems to indicate that the tires might be part of the problem. One of the tires may be defective, have a slipped belt, etc. You might be able to get Toyota to rotate them again, and see if the problem goes away, or even reverses. What tires are on it? Are they Goodyear Integrity? Bridgestone Insignia SE200?
What exactly IS and IS NOT adjustable alignment-wise on this car? Camber and Toe only? or Toe only, or what???? I've read so much of this crap my brain is fried...
The tires are Goodyear RS-A. They really look very decent. Plus, they have done the road force check (which pretty well checks every aspect of balance/trueness, etc.. including the best combination of tires right?). I was suprised at how different the readings were....here are the readings if anyone understands exactly what they mean:
I did my usual weekly 2 hour commute last night. This time, as the jopb was finished, I was loaded down with at least a couple hundred pounds of stuff (my tools, desktop computer, clothes, toiletires, pots/pans, etc). I made sure to stack the majority of weight on the right side of the vehicle. It still drifted in the left lane, but much less severely than when empty. Travel in the right lane was pretty darned straight.
If you have RS-As, you must have the 16" wheels then, yes? If so, the alignment specs I posted are wrong. The correct alignment specs (at least for a Corolla with the 16" wheels) are:
0.34 deg +/- 0.25 deg. Or, total toe should be within 0.09 and 0.59. You're right in the middle.
A road force balance measures lateral and radial runout of the wheel/tire combination (as well as the wheel itself), measures the force of the wheel and tire against a drum, and also does the static spin balance. You want to see about 12-15 pounds of force or less, though officially, I think 20-25 pounds is considered acceptable. I've had Michelin tires that have measured at 3 pounds of force (extremely good). In my experience, if you have two Goodyears at under 10 pounds of force, you're doing well. Your right front and right rear are on the outside of acceptable in my opinion. But they may still be optimally clocked on the wheels. The tires may not be that "round". Still, I don't think that would effect a pull to one side.
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