Does your engine make this sound when cold?

[montreal]

Update: December 19, 2007:
No need to read through all the pages of this topic, Toyota has introduced a technical service bulletin to deal with this problem, number TSB2754.

A copy of the bulletin is viewable at this thread (first post).

http://matrixowners.com/index.php?showtopic=72524

To know if you have a problem requiring this solution, listen to the audio recording at the following link to shared thread containing MP3 recording, click on attachment at bottom of first post:

http://forums.genvibe.com/zerothread?id=20409

================================================== =================
Initial Post starts after following consolidated statistics, as of Dec 9, 2006

Poll results

Corolland .............Yes= 2...............No= 21...........Yes,but different sound= 2
MatrixOwners...........Yes= 9...............No= 52...........Yes,but different sound= 1
GenVibe................Yes= 11...............No= 34...........Yes,but different sound= 0
ToyotaNation-Corolla...Yes= 4...............No= 26...........Yes,but different sound= 0
ToyotaNation-Matrix....Yes= 0...............No= 15...........Yes,but different sound= 1
The creator of poll....Yes= 1
Total..................Yes= 27..............No= 148..........Yes,but different sound= 4
Grand total = 179

Percentage with identical sound = 15.1%
Percentage without sound = 82.7%
Percentage with different sound = 2.2%

While the polls are anonymous, there are posts in all these forums by owners claiming to have the identical issue.
For the purpose of identifying which models and production years are involved, they are as follows in no particular order:
There are no automatic transmissions among this group.

From MATRIXOWNERS.COM

MaidkarenD......'03..Matrix.XR......location:Illin ois
Lime............'03..Matrix.XR......location:Ontar io
PegMatrix.......'03..Matrix.XR......location:Manit oba
oracle (friend).'04..Matrix.XR......location:Ontario
Purplenv........'03..Matrix.XR......location:Ontar io
Bridgejoe.......'03..Matrix.........location:Minne sota
dominator.......'04..Matrix ........location:Ontario
Truckerbob......'03..Matrix.........location:Ontar io
chmodx..........'05..Matrix.........location:Virgi nia
TheCrispyness...'04..Matrix.........location:Illin ois
dexter..........'03..Matrix.XR......location:Ontar io
Montreal........'03..Matrix.........location:Quebe c
Ontario member..'03..Matrix.........location:Ontario

From COROLLAND.COM

BobLevine........'03..Corolla......location:North Carolina
euzeka...........'04..Corolla......location:Quebec
Ti-Jean (friend).'03..Vibe.........location:Quebec
amember..........'03..Corolla......location:Quebec
Mr.Ed............'04..Corolla......location:?
Lethal 7.........'04..Vibe.........location:Illinois

From GENVIBE.COM

Heh!heh!..........'03..Vibe.........location:Ontar io
joatmon...........'03..Vibe.........location:Maryl and
martinz...........'03..Vibe.........location:Ontar io
Andrew-4ce........'03..Vibe.........location:Ontario
burkeyro..........'03..Vibe.........loaction:Ohio
sylvainber........'04..Vibe.........location:Illin ois

From TOYOTANATION.COM (Corolla)

John2000ve........'00..Corolla......location:Texas
CorollaULEV.......'03..Corolla......location:Virgi nia
AUDI..............'03..Corolla......location:Ontar io
rated_w...........'01..Corolla......location:Ontar io

From TOYOTANATION.COM (Matrix)

Salsa03...........'03..Vibe.........location:Ontar io

Other stats

Thread Hits

Corolland................22676
Matrixowners..............6418
GenVibe...................5959
ToyotaNation-Corolla......2717
ToyotaNation-Matrix.......1738

Audio recording downloads..1165

Links to polls

http://www.corolland.com/forums/inde...howtopic=17277

http://www.matrixowners.com/forums/i...topic=38489&hl=

http://forums.genvibe.com/zerothread?id=15929

http://www.toyotanation.com/forum/t72739.html

Links to technical discussion.

http://forums.genvibe.com/zerothread?id=9403


Listen to the sound recording of my engine and please participate in the poll questions which appear at the end of this post. The recording last 20 seconds and captures an event that typically lasts about 40 seconds. This happens at least once a day in winter since my 2003 Matrix was new.

Link to shared thread containing MP3 recording, click on attachment at bottom of first post:
http://forums.genvibe.com/zerothread?id=20409

It is only because Toyota head office has recently thrown in the towel that I regretably feel obliged to place my complaint in the public domain. Also, there has been some confusion as to what the sound is really like. I am pleased to offer for the first time ever a recording.

In another thread titled "idle pulses when starting", many forum members participated in a discussion aimed at finding a technical solution for a rare characteristic that affected a small number of owners in the colder climates of North America.

What we all hoped to eliminate is a unique sound that our engines make during the second minute following a startup after the cars have sat in below freezing temperatures for a minimum of 6 - 8 hours.

For the most part, this issue appears to be cosmetic. Neither drivability nor fuel economy are negatively affected. Nor do these cars pollute.

Many dealerships have made honest, but unsuccessful, attempts to find a solution.

The turning point for me was when I realized that I could pull the fuse on the engine computer and make this sound go away for 2 days at a time. I concluded that no single engine component was defective, rather that all my engine components behaved in a unique combination so as to challenge my engine computer to its limit in order to properly manage the engine when cold.

The sound you are hearing is when the engine software can no longer reconcile all its objectives regarding long term pollution control and keep the idle speed smooth at the same time.

If I were Toyota, I would not want to change the multi-million dollar software of their engine computer in order to satisfy a handfull of unlucky owners. Nevertheless, I paid a full price for my new car and did not end up with one that sounds like all the other Toyotas in my city. Toyota writes that my car is not “abnormal”. But it doesn’t sound normal to me. How about you?

Please vote in the poll and post comments which address the following questions:

1) how objectionable would you find this sound were your car to make it at the same frequency and for the same time duration as mine, and

2) if you were offered for sale a second-hand Matrix that made this sound, would you offer less money to purchase it, and if so, how much less money, bearing in mind that this issue is strictly cosmetic?

Thanks in advance for your participation.

[mikes_matrix]

1)this is not normal......the idle should not surge ......This to me would not be close to acceptable....

2) Yes offer less money .......if you could convince me to buy it???? if you could convince me it was only cosmetic???? Likly a lot less $ .....$1000-2000 or so I might nead an ecu...they are around $2000

[montreal]

Originally Posted by mikes_matrix

1)this is not normal......It might need a (new) ecu...they are around $2000

An owner in St-Paul, Mi. reported that his ECU had been changed under warranty in an attempt to solve this problem, but without success.

When we read about the different parts that Toyota has changed for different owners across North America, we are left aware that there has not been one success story.

It must be as frustrating for the experts at Toyota head office to solve this.

[mistamatrix]

1. I wouldn't want it anymore considering Toyota head office 'threw in the towel' to fix it.

2. at least $2000 less. Since I wouldn't be able to stand it, it would constantly be in the back of my mind that something is wrong even if it is 'cosmetic'.

montreal, now that the weather has warmed up a bit, how has it been acting?

[montreal]

Originally Posted by mistamatrix

1. I wouldn't want it anymore considering Toyota head office 'threw in the towel' to fix it.

2. at least $2000 less. Since I wouldn't be able to stand it, it would constantly be in the back of my mind that something is wrong even if it is 'cosmetic'.

montreal, now that the weather has warmed up a bit, how has it been acting?

Thanks for your answers.

There were a few days last week when it failed at plus 5 degrees C (41 degrees F) and once when it worked at plus 2 degrees C (36 degrees F).

It seems to be more the factor of sitting for a minimum length of time rather than the current temperature.

Of course there is a temperature at which the problem will disappear completely. I suspect that will happen in the next few weeks.

There is an interesting post on the Corolla forum posted by "rated_w".

http://www.toyotanation.com/forum/t72739.html

Food for thought.

[montreal]

Bump,

Please vote in this poll in case you haven't done so already.

Thanks

[montreal]

I have posted the combined results from all polls at different forums at the top of the first post in this thread.

It appears that no more than 8% have this issue.

[montreal]

Now that both the cold weather and my idle hunting are back, I am bumping the thread.

I have heard of this problem occuring on an ECHO as well.

The MP3 recording referred to in the first post of this thread is again available for auditioning. The recording is now hosted on the GENVIBE forum and requires a link to the post and click on the attachment.

[Salsa03]

Wow.... That sounds like a badly timed lawnmower.....


Have you had this checkout at a dealer?????


Ca pas de bon sens!

[montreal]

Originally Posted by Salsa03

Wow.... That sounds like a badly timed lawnmower.....


Have you had this checkout at a dealer?????


Ca pas de bon sens!

A lawnmower? yes, but not a badly timed lawnmower, just a lawnmower that is running out of fuel and the mechanical speed governor is constantly pulsing the carburator to keep it from dying.

The dealer has seen it twice and this problem is so complex, that it will take the Toyota software engineers in Japan a long time to come up with a solution for what I believe is a conflict in the engine computer which tries to reconcile pollution control with smooth performance. There are unique situations where the computer must place a higher importance on passing an EPA test then on dealing with what may be a marginal un-metered air leak.

Such an air leak may not be bad enough to warrant throwing a PID but bad enough to require a change in the pollution control strategy, which indirectly causes a pulsing idle.

[BullMarket]

http://www.toyotanation.com/forum/t72739.html

Mista, I spy a cross post. The other one is longer.

BULLMKT

[montreal]

Originally Posted by BullMarket

http://www.toyotanation.com/forum/t72739.html

Mista, I spy a cross post. The other one is longer.

BULLMKT

The Matrix, Corolla, and Vibe all share the same engine, so it makes sense to raise this issue in the different internal and external forums for owners of these 3 cars.

Now that I have learned that the ECHO with a different engine has this problem as well, I have concluded the the same Toyota software has been recycled.

[montreal]

BUMP.

Anyone new having this same problem in 2006?

[Salsa03]

Hey Montreal... funny I looked back here...


My Vibe did something similar about a month or so ago. It lasted 2-3 days then stopped.


When starting my car on a cold cold morning, the idle would go up to about 2000-2500 rpm then drop down fast to 800 or so then back up, back down, back up..... etc


This lasted until then engine was hot...


Weird.. and scary... but it finally stopped....

[montreal]

Originally Posted by Salsa03

Hey Montreal... funny I looked back here...


My Vibe did something similar about a month or so ago. It lasted 2-3 days then stopped.


When starting my car on a cold cold morning, the idle would go up to about 2000-2500 rpm then drop down fast to 800 or so then back up, back down, back up..... etc


This lasted until then engine was hot...


Weird.. and scary... but it finally stopped....

When normal engines are started when cold, they usually go quickly to 1800 rpm and slowly settle down to 800 over the following 4-5 minutes.

For engines like mine that pulse, they start at 1800 and rise to 2300 during the 1st. minute, then they pulse between 2300 and 1900 (as indicated on the tac). THe pulsing can last up to 1 minute and the number of pulses during that minute will vary according to how cold the engine oil is. The colder the oil, the longer the it takes the motor to rise and fall betewwn the upper and lower rpm limits.

I can't explain what would cause your rpms to drop so far down.

Glad to here your problem went away.