Copper in oil and info-request on a build

[Shatonapples]

Anyone else ever had this experience? I sent in an oil sample and it came back with copper in the oil. The document suggested a few possible failing parts, one of which was the turbo. I recently installed a SSQV BOV, it was pretty much a no-name brand, I didn't really know how to install it, but I put it on, it seemed to be working, and I never heard any compressor surge (I admit, I don't know what to listen for, but it sounded like it would be a notable noise.) Boost still builds up fine, it doesn't really seem like the turbo is going out, but I'm definitely not going to rule it out.

Symptoms: No evident symptoms, really, other than what seems like a somewhat rough ride, like the clutch is slipping a little bit, sometimes. I don't really know how to describe it. I don't think (But it might be) it's relevant.

*The roughness could be my fault, as I have two cars and the clutches operate completely differently, and I've gotten used to the MR-2 instead of the Supra.

Specs: 1987 Supra Turbo, 7M-GTE, stock motor, 5 speed tranny, 3" exhaust turbo back, boost controller, turbo timer used for two minutes always when boost is used. Everything else is stock

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Slightly off-topic from the copper in oil:

I'm looking at tearing down and rebuilding the motor, but the cost of internals for the car is ridiculous. At suprasport, the cart I put together exceeded $5000 for all the internals except the crank, I didn't even see an option for a new crank, but that seems pretty excessive. (My cart included all the studs, pistons, rods, cams, valve and spring set, and main caps) Does anyone know of a shop in the Austin area that might be able to either get me the parts at a cheaper price or put the engine together? I would just assume pay someone to do it if it was an option.

The main reason I'm not ok with the price I'm looking at is because I still have to work out a completely new fuel system, and getting and programming megasquirt.

I'm an automotive n00b, so feel free to offer me some advice. I've helped minimally in the rebuild of a few chevy V8s, I've seen the whole job several times, I've installed a motor in an MR-2, but for the most part, I have minimal experience with the interiors of a motor, so that's the point of this project, to immerse myself in the 7M-GTE.

Thanks in advance, you guys are always very helpful, 'specially Jeeves.

[shaeff]

your main and rod bearings are made with copper. sorry to be the bearer of bad news.

[Shatonapples]

Ah, I've been aware that's a possibility, and it's likely I'll have to tear the motor down and rebuilt it, which is cool with me, because it'll be a huge learning experience, and I'll feel less stupid (I won't think it's my fault, because there's no explanation for that.) I'll continue to hope you're wrong, at the same time, but I think it's the most likely answer.

Is there any way to check on that without tearing the motor down? Can I take off the oil pan and look, or will it not be obvious?

So, does that explain the rough driving? I'm just curious to know if there might be something else wrong to explain that.

Thanks for the quick reply.

[toyomoho]

Find out what type of bearing the turbocharger has, might be ball or needle bearing having no copper.

The pan can be dropped and bearing caps removed to check bearings. Do a Google search on engine bearing failure, there should a site having photos of bearings in various states from good to bad and the reasons for it.

Not sure what rough means. Clutch slipping as in lack of power, throttle but no power? If so, might look at turbo boost pressure variations. The turbo also needs some time to spool up and increase intake manifold pressure.

[Shatonapples]

I've had the car for over a year, so turbo lag has become quite familiar.

The roughness is only at low RPMs, at high RPMs the car feels solid, it accelerates strong, and doesn't appear to have lost any power. The clutch slipping is just the only way I know to describe the roughness at lower RPMs, it could just be me lugging the engine, but I mentioned it just in case it could be related to the oil sample.

[bgrieger]

Copper in small amounts is normal...a sign of dry starts and such. If the oil analysis suggests the amount is excessive, you may well have a problem. You may also have copper from the bronze bits in the engine - valve guides, oil pump shaft bushing, CT-26 turbo bearings and a couple of other places. You would also have elevated tin, but tin may be more difficult to see as being excessive as there are many sources of tin in the engine. Copper is something that should only be seen in small quantity, hence it shows up here.

Not likely related. Check for vac leaks, codes etc. All the basics.

The inspection is only easily seen by removing the engine. Pulling the pan is a nightmare with the engine in place, and actually, you have to unbolt and lift it a bit to get the pan off...Your choice, but I'm convinced people that want to do it this way are near nuts...pull the engine, it takes only another hour or so and you can see everything/get to everything in a comfortable position

[Shatonapples]

I'm gonna let a mechanic look at it instead, and if it comes up as needing something, I can't afford it now, so I'll just tell him that, and then I'll probably do the work myself as cash allows. All the oil analysis said was that there was copper in the oil, and there were some suggested failing parts, I'm guessing it was an excessive amount of copper, although (assuming small amounts of copper is common to this car, but also unique to this car) it's possible they're just mistaking it as a problem.

I think the rough low RPMs is just my driving, because the feel of the MR-2 vs. the Supra is very different.

I don't hear any leaks, but that doesn't mean there aren't any, and there aren't any codes.

I'll see what my mechanic says and go from there.

Although, I am curious, is there anywhere I can go for engine internals other than suprasport, or is a supra build seriously $10,000? That just seems excessively expensive. It'd be worth investing in a 1J instead at that price.

[bgrieger]

Small amounts of copper are normal for every car...as is tin, aluminium, iron and pretty much any other metal you can think of. Given you have the report and can read it, I'm sure if they tell you what is present and they may indicate if it is excessive. That said, all the reports I've seen list anything found in other than trace amounts, and tell you where it might come from, but make no statement as to whether it is excessive/indicates a problem or not.

What is the goal? That determines what you need. If you want to cross (and are genuinely interested in spending the money to do so) well past 500hp, you might want to build it with forged and balanced internals. If you are like most, and upgrade the CT-26, or get a small T4 and run into the 350-450 range, you can do that on a good stock rebuild with proper tuning after...no need to spend the extra cash.

A 7M doesn't cost 10k to build...hell, if I dumped 10k in I'd shoot the builder if I didn't have nearly the most potent 7M ever built, and the whole damn thing gold plated...now, if I wanted him to do all the work on the car itself, plus tune, plus the supporting mods, plus a turbo kit then yes, 10k might be a bargain. Determine what you want out of it longer term, and get some prices and estimates from machinists in your area as the prices can vary wildly. Look for places that do a number of foreign engines versus those that do primarily domestics. They may cost more, but tend to have the equipment and resources to meet tolerances.

[Jeeves]

With the cost of pistons and rings included, my overbored, built motor cost $2300.

[hevster1]

First off, what you need is someone competent to do at least a general check on the engine. If it is felt that the bearings are suspect removal of the pan and bearing caps would be necessary to determine damage. You do not mention any engine knock. With bearings worn into the copper you would have a noticeable knock. Not to dissuade you from doing your own overhaul but you really do not seem to have the necessary experience and knowledge to get the job done properly. Professional work costs money and takes time. Cylinder finish, ring gap, piston to wall clearance, deck finish and valve grinding methods all vary and can increase or decrease power by 20% or more. I have seen professional builders charge far in excess of 10k for a great engine. It all boils down to what do you want to do and how much do you have to spend. The first step is to determine what if anything is wrong.

[Shatonapples]

My main question regarding builds is where you get parts. The only place that I've seen is suprasport.com.

Rods cost $1200.
Pistons cost $600.
Cams cost $1200.
Main caps cost $600.
Valvetrain costs $1600.
Then add all the fasteners from ARP and you're looking at $5400.

Which of those could be ignored on a 52,000mi motor?

Mainly I'm looking for a place to shop for parts. I'll worry about machining later, I'm more just looking for a place to buy the parts.

As far as whether or not there is a problem, there is no knock, as I stated above, there are no signs other than copper in the oil, and a hesitation that is probably due to my habit of not giving the supra enough gas, being used to the MR-2.

[bgrieger]

As I said above, what you can ignore depends on your goals. Your engine builder will tell you specifically what you need to replace as far as bearings and bushings and other parts go, and when you figure out what kind of power goals you want we can help guide you in the right direction.

Not to sound blunt, but if you have no idea where you're going with this, we can't help you get there. I've seen far too many people with all sorts of cars and dreams want to hop them up and make them "faster". They spend a ton of money on parts and bail on the project after they spent the cash all wrong. They had no idea what they wanted, and had no idea how to get it done once they did start buying everything under the sun (if they ever did figure out what they wanted). When they did learn, it was either because they blew it up after forgetting or not knowing they needed important things (or they cheaped out cause cash was short in one area), or they gave up competely when the money ran out because they spent it foolishly/needlessly and in the end dumped all the parts new in boxes.

We would prefer to help, but if you want to be one of the spend and regret types, please let me know what you collect and are trying to get rid of later

[Shatonapples]

I'm building for street and occasional autocross. I would like the engine tolerant to 650HP ish, and I would like to run low boost (10-14) and make around 450-500HP. That's if I bother keeping a 7M, but for the sake of this purpose, those are my clearest intentions.

I'm a trial and error sort of person, I've learned the vast majority of what I know in the past year with just random projects. I can move an engine around, hook everything up just fine, it's simple, and I realize that. Inside of an engine is more complicated, but I'm not afraid to ask for help when I get stuck somewhere. My intention is to learn via this project, I'm willing to make mistakes and pay for them later, though I'd like to minimize them. I'm just trying to build a reliable street/mild autocross motor for my supra.

I apologize if that came off as irritated, but I do feel somewhat condescended upon. I realize each of you know far more than I do, but you were all here at one point, and I'm just slowly working my way up, asking for mostly just suggestions along the way. I see that my purposes were more relevant than I first realized, so I'm sorry about that, and have identified them above. I'll make sure to include that next time so that I don't sound as incompetent.

I'm approaching you all with this question: For the purposes stated above (autocross, 650HP tolerance, tuned to 500HP), where should I shop and for what internals should I shop? I'd just assume not make all the power I can, and have a more reliable motor. I want something that may last.

[bgrieger]

Ok, now we have something to work with. For those purposes, you're looking to build for spool over power to compete and to play on the streets. You want quick response and as much of the power down in the low to mid range (2500-4000rpm) as opposed to screaming in the 6000-7000 range. This is good, in that it costs less to build for this purpose as you don't need to build for 650, and can forget some of the parts you listed. You can't have the instant spool with a turbo large enough to push that kind of air IMO. Again, some will tell you that a GT40R or a GT42 spools fast, and it does compared to the old T4's, but it's still too laggy to get the most out of it for auto-x and around town street use IMO. Great for highways though!

If I were you (and others will differ in their list somewhat) build the engine with forged pistons, shot peined stock rods, stock bearings, stock valvetrain, metal head gasket and be done with it. You can throw a full set of ARP's on if you want that security. I would put some of the cash you were going to spend on other parts into labour to have the head ported and polished, balance the moving parts, and put into some other parts you may not have considered such as clutch, new crank pulley (an ATI would do nicely) as well as the other stock build parts (Toyota or clevite bearings etc.). This engine should be fine to the mid 500's, and will serve you well for the stated purposes. You can add cams later if you want to tweak power, but they won't be needed right away. Get a good machinist, tell him your goals and the general recommendations about what you hear from us and get his input. If he's built Toyota engines before, he already probably has a good idea of what you are looking for, and will be able to advise on piston sizes, bearings and all the other goodies from what he has to do to the block and head.

We try not to be asses because we know where you are coming from, but we're not mind readers...

[Shatonapples]

Cool, that's good info.

I very much appreciate it. If there are any differing opinions, shout, I'm still thinking the whole situation over.