What do you all think is the basic and then most advanced guages you can add to your car? On a budget, I'd think factory are fine, but if one wanted, I think the best starters point would be A/F (low band to wire into the factory O2 sensor) $22.95: http://store.summitracing.com/partde...5&autoview=sku
Then boost/Vac guage $126.95: http://store.summitracing.com/partde...5&autoview=sku
and then a voltmeter, instead of relying upon the battery light $27.95: http://store.summitracing.com/partde...5&autoview=sku
So for $177.85 you have the informative gauges that will help during the quest for a little more power. As you go on in this quest, the more advanced gauges get a bit more tricky depending on what you're doing or how accurate you want things to be such as installing an AEM ECU, you can always go and get EGT Probes, wideband O2 sensor, etc...Any thoughts?
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Light moves faster than sound. That is why someone may appear to be bright, until you hear them speak.
1987 Toyota Supra Turbo.
IMO there are only 3-5 gauges of any consequence in a car. First the tach, and ours is pretty much fine. For a street car, put the speedo and fuel level up there too, otherwise ignore them and put in a fuel warning idiot light. Next, oil pressure, oil temperature and water temperature. The others are fine for setting the car up and tuning, but once you're rolling you don't need a thing they tell you except for the next time you need to trouble shoot or tune. These might include boost, voltage, fuel pressure, EGT, A/F, ammeter, Vf meter or anything else that comes to mind...That said, I have a full stock compliment, with the facotry boost gauge swapped for a factory voltmeter and a single seperate boost. I just like to see the needle move
IMO there are only 3-5 gauges of any consequence in a car. First the tach, and ours is pretty much fine. For a street car, put the speedo and fuel level up there too, otherwise ignore them and put in a fuel warning idiot light. Next, oil pressure, oil temperature and water temperature. The others are fine for setting the car up and tuning, but once you're rolling you don't need a thing they tell you except for the next time you need to trouble shoot or tune. These might include boost, voltage, fuel pressure, EGT, A/F, ammeter, Vf meter or anything else that comes to mind...That said, I have a full stock compliment, with the facotry boost gauge swapped for a factory voltmeter and a single seperate boost. I just like to see the needle move
Nice, it is all in our "IMO". I have to ask though, your 87 doesn't have a fuel warning light? I'd love to put in a digital Speedo and Tach into the dash, but the problem is the darn reed switch in the back of the dash for the TEMS and ECU. I'd have to crack that open and see how many magnets they use, then count the speedo gears in the trans to figure out the pulse per mile and then buy an adjustable digital speedo to mechanical cable converter, just for the reed switch and then another for the digital speedometer. Things like this: http://store.summitracing.com/partde...5&autoview=sku
and: http://store.summitracing.com/partde...5&autoview=sku
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Light moves faster than sound. That is why someone may appear to be bright, until you hear them speak.
1987 Toyota Supra Turbo.
I suppose that all gauges could be important. I think that temp, boost and oil pressure are the top on my list. I am planning on getting these gauges, and I think that I am going to go through auto meter. They seem to be reasonably priced and I like the looks of them.
I was just speaking in general. Mine has all the stockers except boost which I went aftermarket. If I was building from scratch, I'd limit to my list, or get one of the motec display units!
I was just speaking in general. Mine has all the stockers except boost which I went aftermarket. If I was building from scratch, I'd limit to my list, or get one of the motec display units!
Got a link on the motec?
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Light moves faster than sound. That is why someone may appear to be bright, until you hear them speak.
1987 Toyota Supra Turbo.
After market I am running. volt, boost, egt, wideband o2, oil pressure, water temp, fuel pressure. I find everyone of them fairly important. Then again I am so far away from stock it is almost funny.
I would do the SDL over the ADL as I would never need the extras, though even the SDL has a bit of a sticker shock attached to it (roughly 2700 dollars US worth of shock)!
What do you all think is the basic and then most advanced guages you can add to your car? On a budget, I'd think factory are fine, but if one wanted, I think the best starters point would be A/F (low band to wire into the factory O2 sensor) $22.95:
I can't disagree more. Unless someone is completely informed as to what it means (which is limited almost explicitly to "Are you above, or below 14.7:1?", and even then it's just a waste of money because it has not tuning or problem solving application). To someone with an S-AFC, they try adding boost, tuning it, and shooting for where it says they're in the "green" and in reality they're desperately lean because 14.7 is horrid for boost. In stock form or even on a mild tune this information is more damaging than helpful. It's analagous to screaming "BOMB!" in an airport. The TCCS stock WOT map is already notoriously fat.
If I had to pick, I'd rather save the pennies and throw them towards a peak/warn vac/boost gauge.
Edit: Bob brought up a good point, monitoring what the Vf signal is doing is probably far more useful than montoring the narrowband O2 sensor. I haven't done it in so long I spaced out about it. It'll tell you if you're in closed/open loop and if it's adding/subtracting fuel.
I can't disagree more. Unless someone is completely informed as to what it means (which is limited almost explicitly to "Are you above, or below 14.7:1?", and even then it's just a waste of money because it has not tuning or problem solving application).
It doesn't surprise me that you disagree as you're not wrong, but at the same time you're also not completely right. Using a wideband would be a bigger waste of money in my case, simply for what you said and pointed out nicely. If I am under full acceleration and it is reading at both Green and has not slipped up to "rich", I know I have a problem. If it ever goes toward lean, even without boost applied, I know I have a problem. Your second sentence applies to me greatly: "Unless someone is completely informed as to what it means". Then again, using the VF is a better choice, but, IMO (remembering that is the key "IMO") using something affordable compared to pricey goes into another territory. Too, I need that light show for those acid dropping hippies when I got the stereo cranked up to Pink Floyd and Grateful Dead
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Light moves faster than sound. That is why someone may appear to be bright, until you hear them speak.
1987 Toyota Supra Turbo.
Using a wideband would be a bigger waste of money in my case
This is a sticking point between you and I. I've never advocated getting a wideband. They are expensive and -very- required for serious tuning and anyting about a slightly raised boost level but are definitely unnecessary for someone with say "intake, exhause and a shimmed wastegate."
Quote:
If it ever goes toward lean, even without boost applied, I know I have a problem.
In normal operation the AF's should flip flop, going lean to rich, lean, then rich and so on. This is due to the fact that 14.7 is a switching point.
Then again, using the VF is a better choice, but, IMO (remembering that is the key "IMO")
I'm really not sure there's much "IMO" to this one. Vf tells you explicitly what the ECU is doing, no guess work where as a narrowband give you a nice wide range and is like playing "red light, green light." This isn't a hard device to make. It was originally created by Jeff Montigny @ SONiC. Might even be able to adapt a Narrowband gauge to display some useful information! :-D
And because I never adequately answered the question:
My very first gauge was a vac/boost gauge because the stock one is crap. I wish I'd gotten a peak/warn but I jumped at a shiny HKS that I still have. So, a good boost gauges is in the list. I personally haven't found much use in a volt meter except to tell you when you don't have enough of them a situation that usually only requires the gauge as a final confirmation that the car .... just ........ won't ....... start. Oil Pressure is too inaccurate as well in stock fashion and many people panic due to the low pressure at idle. Coolant temp would be a welcome addition Oil temp is also handy. Fuel Pressure is handy but not until much later into modifications. Stock tach is fine, but the speedo sucks as it's cable/gear driven and VERY prone to lube wear and breaking. A digital replacement would be aweseome.
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1988 Mk3 Turbo Targa - 17.5psi, 486hp, 494tq.
[img]http://www.**********s.com/supra/rsw_sig_stupidTN.jpg[/img]
Who came up with this 500px wide BS?
I'm really not sure there's much "IMO" to this one.
There is always IMO, this isn't factual, I've not yet seen with my eyes any fuel injected car from the factory with a wideband. They call these narrowband not because the sensor has a hard time seeing differences in A/F mixtures, but because the band it works in is narrow, yes it switches (so you call it, it is a change in voltage) off and on from 14.7:1 depending on the A/F, which is a great starting point, any good gauge can say X=14.7, X.1=14.6 and usually have a buffer to dismiss milisecond changes, producing your called light show, my gauge never flucuated very much at all at constant speed, elevation and load. http://www.fordmuscle.com/archives/2...tout/index.php
As far as voltmeters, my car's battery light never told my new alternator wasn't charging and that is when I had to learn the hard way.
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Light moves faster than sound. That is why someone may appear to be bright, until you hear them speak.
1987 Toyota Supra Turbo.
Last edited by ddouglas77; 03-19-2009 at 05:32 PM.
I agree with Jeeves on this one. The reason for aftermarket gauges is to monitor beyond factory limitations.
Therefore in a tuning aspect the narrowband will not adequately display what your actual points for tuning are.
Regardless of the fact that it switches at a certain A/F.
No tuner will tell anyone a narrowband is vital tool for tuning. Or at least if they do I sure as hell will not let them touch my cal files.
I agree on the speedo cable so much I have snapped two of them so far in my supra and have learned to keep them on hand just in case.
Not too far down the road I really want to take and do a digital dash with a carputer as its core for display properties and just run a serial cable to my AEM ems and use a gps program to use as an input for speed. Then even run a program to interchange RPM with speed to display what gear i am running in so I can tune per gear. And make the most of engine loads due to air resistance.
Good instruments are so crucial to fine tuning. It is make or break pretty much. If my fuel pressure drops 20psi under hard boost I risk melting pistons and destroying my entire engine.
There is always IMO, this isn't factual, I've not yet seen with my eyes any fuel injected car from the factory with a wideband. They call these narrowband not because the sensor has a hard time seeing differences in A/F mixtures, but because the band it works in is narrow, yes it switches (so you call it, it is a change in voltage) off and on from 14.7:1 depending on the A/F, which is a great starting point, any good gauge can say X=14.7, X.1=14.6 and usually have a buffer to dismiss milisecond changes, producing your called light show, my gauge never flucuated very much at all at constant speed, elevation and load. http://www.fordmuscle.com/archives/2...tout/index.php
As far as voltmeters, my car's battery light never told my new alternator wasn't charging and that is when I had to learn the hard way.
I believe there's more but offhand but VW lists the Bosch 5 wire O2 sensor, part #17014 (aka Innovate part #3737) as a stock replacement O2 sensor in the following vehicles:
Quote:
2005-02 Audi TT, TT Quattro
2005-02 Volkswagen Beetle
2003-01 Volkswagen Eurovan
2006-1999 Volkswagen Golf
2005-1999 Volkswagen Jetta
Just saying I haven't ever run into a situation where I've ever said "Man a volt meter would have saved me." Not that it couldn't happen or hasn't happened to someone. The volt meter just wouldn't be on the top of my list.
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1988 Mk3 Turbo Targa - 17.5psi, 486hp, 494tq.
[img]http://www.**********s.com/supra/rsw_sig_stupidTN.jpg[/img]
Who came up with this 500px wide BS?
I believe there's more but offhand but VW lists the Bosch 5 wire O2 sensor, part #17014 (aka Innovate part #3737) as a stock replacement O2 sensor in the following vehicles:
Just saying I haven't ever run into a situation where I've ever said "Man a volt meter would have saved me." Not that it couldn't happen or hasn't happened to someone. The volt meter just wouldn't be on the top of my list.
I think that last vid is really the best you have, the engine was going under load and letting go. When you let off the throttle, fuel injected or not, it does go lean. The other two, I wonder if the O2 was even hot yet. As for my meter, the one I put in the Supra that I've used on 3 different cars for minor tuning, i've never, ever, seen it fluctuate like that-ever! Buffers are nice, but I know Autometer uses them, so they may have had other problems with wiring or alternator noise, something, that isn't normal, whatsoever. Wideband is great if your doing major tuning, narrowband is very sufficient for minor tuning-that was my only point. This kind of reminds me of when people say using a 50,000 volt coil is better than oem....
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Light moves faster than sound. That is why someone may appear to be bright, until you hear them speak.
1987 Toyota Supra Turbo.
Last edited by ddouglas77; 03-19-2009 at 09:23 PM.
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, but if one wanted, I think the best starters point would be A/F (low band to wire into the factory O2 sensor) $22.95: 
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