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3sge aw11

110K views 285 replies 18 participants last post by  not12listen 
#1 ·
firstly, no this is NOT the BEAMS engine.

secondly, anyone who suggests using a different engine, please close the browser. :) i am set with this engine and will finish this swap...

thirdly, its a 1st Gen 3sge from an 88 Celica GTS... i chose this engine on purpose...

forthly, anyone who suggests using a different engine, please close the browser. :) i am set with this engine and will finish this swap...

below is the original post concern this swap...
----

i plan on transplanting a 3s-ge into my mr2. i've learned a lot with that little demon out there. i've no doubt that i could learn a lot more in its current standing. i am hitting a noticable limit where i do need more power.

but, as some people know, i'm not a power hungry fiend, and i take what i learn in stages.

so, 140-150hp seems reasonable, and with the fact that i plan on keeping in NA, i can stab the throttle and not force myself to learn finite foot control.

i've talked to a few people about it.

most everyone has said the same thing - get a turbo. it seems that few are listening. i do not like the feel of the turbo. it lags far too much in lower rpm, and the sudden surge of power could easily spell injury (or worse) for me. this is because of my lack of experience driving a turbo.

i've thought about supercharging my mr2. and for a while, it really seemed like the thing to do. but, something has changed that. i didnt like the feeling of increasing the power so suddenly - again, lack of proper foot control.

even after i've driven our AllTrac Celica for a while, and have gotten comfortable with the feel of a turbo, i am still not a fan of the whole 'turbo' thing.

(time to rant!)

one thing i've noticed from most people that increase the power of their motors, they dont put the slightest thought to the brakes.

i recall when i got my mr2, that the first upgrade i did was to the tires (ie. wider and stickier tires), then right to upgrading the brakes. suspension followed in very short order... and, its been a slow process ever since.

this is one reason why i've focussed so much time and effort into upgrading my brakes. hence, the 2 sets of dual piston calipers that are in the front room. i'm going to mount a set on the front and rear, then make my parking brake hydraulic. it should all be quite interesting. i even have the brake master cylinder from a non-abs 91 turbo mr2.

this brake master cylinder has a larger opening for fluid to pass thru. this means i have to press less on the brake pedal to attain the same amount of force exerted on the brakes. and with the fact that there are 2 pistons, it means greater clamping force, which turns into later braking with less effort on my part. also, with this upgrade, i'm also moving over to vented discs front and rear, which means i can balance the braking potential of front vs rear more to what i feel comfortable with.

this is attained thru the purchase and installation of a brake bias adjuster, with a manual dial adjuster mounted in the cabin near the center console. this allows me to be able to adjust the balance of the brakes while driving too!

along the way, i'm going to purchase a TRD LSD for my mr2. running with an open differential really isnt comfortable. and lord knows that i'm going to need it once this brake setup is complete.

in order to properly handle the power i'm planning on producing in my mr2, i'm also going to fit some 225 width tires on the rear.

and now... the area that i know virtually nothing about... transmissions! what sort of gear ratios/acceleration do i want? one would think (myself at that) that Toyota has chosen specific gear ratios for specific reasons. my guess is that the ratios match the power output of the motor its been mated to, to create a comfortable and drivable setup. i can only hope that 1st, 2nd and 3rd have the same aggressive acceleration that my mr2 has currently.

so, in a nutshell, there is the majority of the plans for my mr2 and all the little thoughts bouncing around in my head...
 
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#56 ·
just purchased my Magnecor 8.5mm ignition wires.

also, contacted a special company about my coolant hoses... i should hear back from them on monday. once these are officially ordered, i'll post up a link to their website, so everyone can check them out if they want.
 
#58 ·
a very important step has been completed! the original shifter length was too short, so 2nd, 4th and reverse would all strike the backing plate and not allow me fully into those gears.

friday, Jordan and went to True Value, Momument Car Parts and Home Depot, searching for parts that would allow me to add about 1/2 inch to the shifter throw. not a single piece was sourced - everything was in standard... FAIL.

on saturday, i took a trip over to OSH. again, nothing. they recommended O'Reilly. i figured "what the hell? it couldn't hurt..." i went to the 'nuts and bolts' section and began my hunt.

low and behold, a 'water pump stud kit' had EXACTLY what i needed! some threaded rod (about 1 inch long), some lock washers and some miscellaneous bolts - everything in M6 1.0 pitch!

after testing fitting everything together, i did the test fit on the car. too long. so, out came the dremel with a cutting wheel... back and forth, etc... always just a bit too long. the light was gone, as was my time to work on it.

finally, this morning, i bust out the dremel and cut off just a bit more... i test fit it... ZING! it fits perfectly!!! now the shifter goes into every gear without problem AND in neutral, it sits perfectly upright!

what i did not realize; because the shift lever is from a 93 Mr2, it sits considerably lower than my original shifter. not exactly a good OR bad thing... just a difference to get used to.

if anyone wants to see pix of my setup, i'll be happy to take pix and share them and explain exactly what i've done.
 
#61 ·
yesterday, some very good progress was made...

the rear wheel studs (including the broken ones) were removed and the new ARP wheel studs were installed / the starter was also installed (thanks again to Jordan for the heads up/hook up on this!) / the rear engine mount is completed / the front engine mount area has been re-enforced!

this following weekend, i will be removing the front wheel studs and installing the ARP wheel studs, i might even remove the old axles and install the new ones - that'd be fancy!
 
#62 ·
ok... pix!



ah yes... the throttle body... :)


top view of the factory wheel studs.


side view of the factory wheel studs.


top view of the ARP wheel studs.


side view of the ARP wheel studs.


the starter... THANKS JORDAN!!!!


damned electric speedo gear. need to swap it to the mechanical speed gear.


top view of the rear engine mount.


intake manifold - missing the throttle cable brackets.


top view of the front engine mount.
 
#63 ·
so, monday i get to work and my brake rotors are there! Power Slot slotted rotors front and rear!

tuesday, i get to the office and my EBC Green Stuff front and rear pads are there!

and now today, my coolant hoses arrived!

and now, some pix...


my fun brake setup stuff. :)


a box!


another box!


2 boxes!


stuff!


bend it to the shape you want, and it stays!


bend it to the shape you want, and it stays!


bend it to the shape you want, and it stays!


bend it to the shape you want, and it stays!


an ARP wheel studs, a factory wheel stud and a broken wheel stud.
 
#64 · (Edited)
today's progress!

captions under the photos as usual...


Cusco rear strut tower brace


front ARP wheel studs


cruise control bracket removed - i do not have the cruise control bucket


coolant overflow tank - opposite side of the engine bay for you MKI specific people


"Joel-Spec" bent Coolflex hose. this is the hose that goes near the starter.


"Joel-Spec" bent Coolflex hose. this is the hose that goes near the starter.


"Joel-Spec" bent Coolflex hose. this is the hose that goes near the alternator.


"Joel-Spec" bent Coolflex hose. this is the hose that goes near the alternator.


"Joel-Spec" bent Coolflex hose. this is the hose that goes near the alternator.


Techna-Fit braided steel clutch line


just for the record, today was the first time in over a year that my Mr2 has had a functional clutch pedal! and, while under the car, i even added a few washers to the shift linkage, to take out some of the slop. this is the best the (and most accurate) shifter has EVER felt in my Mr2...
 
#66 · (Edited)
they are not normal hoses. they are corrugated copper. they are SOLID copper that is made flexible like a flexi-straw. pretty damned beefy, i must say.

their site is:
http://coolflex.com/cfm/welcome.cfm

its about $95 for a 3ft hose and the couplers (i bought 2 kits). the couplers they ship with did NOT work for me. i had to drop another $100 in reducing sized couplers and t-bolt clamps from another source.

the website for the silicone couplers and t-bolt clamps is:
http://www.siliconehose.com/commerce/index.jsp
 
#68 · (Edited)
yeah... the hoses were pricey, but they will be worth it. and honestly, this swap, while 99% stock, was more expensive than i originally thought. but, that is how it goes. :)

$450 - engine
$250 - s54 transmission from 1994 MKII Mr2 NA
$600 - replacement parts (ie. water pump, oil pump, timing belt, full gasket rebuild kit)
$700 - full engine tear down and rebuild from scratch (includes the cost of new rings, washers, freeze plugs, etc)
$450 - brake rotors and pads
$175 - windshield
$500 - tires (not purchased yet)
$120 - fuel tank cleaning
$90 - Walbro 190lph fuel pump
$25 - braided steel clutch line
$50 - mechanical speed gear assembly
$300 - Clutch Masters Stage 1 clutch
$60 - Sachs new OEM flywheel
$210 - Coolflex hoses
$100 - custom couplers for Coolflex hoses
$50 - a/c compressor
$80 - phenolic intake manifold spacer (thermal blocker)
$120 - full injector cleaning at Witch Hunter Performance
$40 - hot tank cleaning for intake manifold and fuel rail
$450 - MK1.5 engine mount kit from Speed-Source
$500 - FGK/Fujitsubo exhaust
$250 - ceramic coating of FGK/Fujitsubo exhaust
$80 - MKII shifter cables and shift lever
$135 - a super duper special oil filter kit that is on order (do not have yet - hence no photos of it)
$50 - replacement hoses for the fuel tank
$100 - braided steel teflon fuel feed/return lines (this number is PURELY a guess)
$50 - MKII clutch slave kit
$150 - new Mr2 MKII NA axles
$5 - throttle bracket (from Pick N Pull)
$75 - new OEM fuel pressure regulator
$75 - new OEM fuel damper
$120 - ARP wheel studs

some items that did not cost me, because i have awesome friends...
removal of factory engine mounts (passenger side and driver side specifically)
installation/welding of new side engine mounts (passenger side and driver side specifically)
'customizing' and 're-enforcing' front and rear engine mounts


well, that's all that i can recall off the top of my head. if anything else comes to mind, i'll post it.

oh, and i haven't purchased my $150 head light housings or $50 headlight relay kit or the $30 H4 bulbs...
 
#69 ·
That engine looks like it belongs there! They should have used that bad boy from day 1.. Happy to see your car close to road-worthiness, Joel.


Random thought: Have you found any data regarding fuel pressures with withe Walbro 190 on this engine? It has been my direct experience on multiple engines that Walbro pumps have a nasty tendency to overpower stock FPRs.
 
#70 ·
I just saw the photo(s) of the header installed..... keep in mind that is extremely close to the firewall and much closer than the stock unit (which has several inches). a stock 4age manifold with just the heatshield removed can generate enough heat to start burning the fiberglass 'padding' in an aw11.....

you might want to built some sort of heatshield because of that.... especially since some of the fuel lines run through the middle of the car there.
 
#71 ·
@toyotaspeed90 - a friend that does fab work is already in the process of building a custom head shield for my header. :)


today's progress...


this is what happens when you neglect your front trunk. i have no one to blame but myself.


this is what 45 minutes of wire wheeling, then 15 minutes of rust-o-leum will turn it into. i know it is NOT perfect, but removing each and every bit of everything from the front trunk is an unwise idea, as i would forget something...
 
#72 ·
today's visit to Pick N Pull was quite successful!



factory Oil Cooler setup pulled from a 5th Gen Celica GT. i have been hunting for one of these for quite some time... total price was about $26!!


as anyone can guess, i have plans for this little device. first being a test fitment onto my Mr2's 3SGE - that will, most likely, happen this weekend.
 
#73 ·
did a quick test fit this evening...

removed the original hollow stud that the oil filter threads onto and put the oil cooler in its place. it threaded perfectly! there is no place for the 'stay' hoop on my block though. not such a big deal, being that the main hollow stud will hold it in place, but i will also see about having a simple bracket made that will hold it to the block and stop it from having the chance to pivot.

so... i'll be sending off the lines and oil cooler for a nice hot tank session soon enough. once its installed, i'll take some photos.
 
#74 ·
today's progress... HUGE step forward!


center tunnel - facing forward


front of the engine bay


fuel tank removed!

so... next weekend, this fuel tank is going to 'the shop' and being professionally cleaned, pressure tested then being prepared to go back into my Mr2!! :)

at that time, i will ask how much it'd cost to have the fuel pump installed (while they have it). that way, i don't have to worry about me making a mistake on the wiring. :)
 
#80 · (Edited)
yes the celica (from 1986 until current) are all FWD. it only matters if you cannot find an appropriate RWD transmission.

in the 4th gen celica (st162) the s53 transmission is used. in the 2nd gen mr2 non-turbo (sw20) that uses the 5sfe engine, the s54 transmission is used. the only significant difference between the s53 and s54 is the side that the shift lever is on.

so... you get a 3sge and mate it to an s54.

on one of the previous pages, is a list of all the parts (and approximate) prices that i've put into this swap. i fully encourage you to read over that list first. if you have any questions whatsoever, about any portion of my swap, i'd be glad to answer all that i can.

----

also, the 5sfe and 3sge use the same clutch kit. :) depending on the year of 3sge you get, it might be a 6 bolt or 8 bolt flywheel. be sure to get the correct one for the specific crank/bottom end you get.
 
#82 ·
135hp stock.

the purpose of this swap is not for hp gains. this swap is intended to balance the powerband (ie. torque) with my style of driving.

quite honestly, this sort of swap will not be 'ideal' for most people, as most people just want a high hp setup - obviously, that's not me. every bit of my setup (brakes, suspension, engine) is geared specifically for canyon runs and autox style driving.

within that, there are a lot of details that are specific to my Mr2. my alignment settings are not common, and my brake setup is considerably different than most. and this engine was chosen on purpose - for the additional torque (30% more and 800rpm sooner compared to the 4age), overall ease of getting parts, 100% legality in the state of California and its broad powerband.

so... as you can guess, a lot of thought went into exactly which engine and why. a 5sfe is considerably easier to acquire (for less money too), but the powerband is not what i want.

anywho... i could go on for a very, very, very long time about the reasoning and philosophy of my choices. but, ultimately, they suit me and my driving. each person has their own 'ideal' setup, and the chance exists that this setup might match someone else's goals, but that is to be determined with lots of experience with their current setup.

its like saying "i like chocolate. but, i've never had it. but, i know that i like it."

i'm not trying to shy you away from a project of your own, or mirroring my setup - do as you like. but, i encourage you to do a LOT of driving with your current setup, blow a few head gaskets because you're pushing too damned hard for far too long, snap a wheel stud or two from excessively hard cornering, seize an alternator from how violent the engine is overheating, shatter a rear rotor in half from too many canyon runs (on ebay special rotors)...

do all of that (well, as many as you can), then decide what your actual goal is. then start asking a LOT of questions and doing a LOT of research. the more questions you ask, the more informed your decision will be, and the better suited for your driving, will your engine be.

it sounds like a lot to do, and it is. but, it took me a few YEARS to decide which engine. that was while my 4age was still operational. i felt the limits of it, and knew that i would utterly destroy it.

when you find yourself on a canyon road, not thinking for a single instant about the road in front of you, when you are just reacting instinctively... when your comfort reaches a point where you feel that you might die around the next corner from going too fast... and the next day or week, you do the same and you find that the engine is what is slowing you down - that is the moment you will know that you are going to do a swap.

so... be thoughtful, ask a tremendous amount of questions, and most importantly - choose something that works for you, not someone else.



sorry for the rambling. i find myself defending my choice in engine against more than a handful of people, because it is not what THEY would do.
 
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