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poor mpg got me stumped

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mpg
14K views 30 replies 12 participants last post by  jordi 
#1 ·
my 2000 echo mpg has me stuped? it has 226,xxx miles.

i have changed the oil, spark plugs(SK16R11), air filter, cleaned the throttle body, got an alignment, checked tire psi, ran a bottle of Techron in the tank.

but i still keep getting around like 24-25 mpg??? there are no check engine lights. and if i track mgp in the torque app it has me around 34.

do you guys have any idea what could be causing the poor MPG?
i feel like maybe its evaporating and thats why torque is reporting higher? but wouldn't it throw a code
 
#4 ·
Get a compression test done. No point in expecting a high mileage engine to preform like a new engine.
Poor compression = poor power = poor MPG.

If your gas was evaporating, you would have a leak in the gas tank and that would cause an engine light.

Don't trust the "torque App". Just stick with good old fashion math when you fill the tank.
 
#5 ·
ill do a compression check over the weekend. i was just using the to torque app to try and see a more of a instant read. iv seen 35 in the past but it was a while ago i knew i needed an alignment for a long time thought that was causing it but after i got it not a hole lot better.

i can tell theres a good amount of blow by when i take the oil cap off with the car running i feel air coming out. witch makes me not hopeful.

car runs great im pretty sure it needs some engine mounts but thats about it accelerates fine and runs fine.

maintained by me iv done things like controler arms spark plugs oil change ever 3500 synthetic oil.
 
#6 · (Edited)
Air you feel from the oil cap is not necessarily blow-by; you have to understand the pistons are going up and down, that alone will create pressure from the crankcase. If the PCV is working, that would minimize the pressure. Compression test will give you a better idea on the condition of the engine.

Synthetic oil every 3500 can become costly. Personally, I don't feel synthetic oil on a high mileage engine is really necessary, don't think there is any gain to it; I prefer the oil for high mileage engine, since they are engineered for that propose. The discrepancy might very well be differences in calculation method; not familiar with torque app, but some of them rely on the vacuum or other means to provide an estimate of the mileage. Good for show but not necessarily accurate. Just my 2 cents.
 
#7 ·
How are the breaks? It's probably pretty normal for a brake caliper to fail or start dragging ... 16 year old car with 250K miles on it.

What do the tires look like? How is the pressure in the tires? If you are expecting decent mileage, make sure they are in good shape, no bent rims and each tire is about 36-40PSI.

I would change the oil to a little thicker oil... Are you burning any oil? Blue smoke coming out of the exhaust?

I was also thinking, maybe the computer is off? Keep track of distances to make sure... Usually I get about 440-450 miles per tank. So that's about 8-9 days worth of fuel for me running into hilo and back every day. About 50 miles a day.

One big cause of the echo getting it's great fuel mileage is the variable valve timing. Not sure, can't remember but if you replaced the alternator and incorrectly pushed back or wedged somewhere between the alternator to put tension on a belt, you could have damaged the connector. Also, there is a way to check that VVT part.

Hope you get your mileage back! That's pretty much half the reason I'm still driving my car! :)
 
#8 ·
if you have access to a scan tool id also take a look at the fuel trims. if theyre near zero then its probably just an aging engine, but if you see a positive trim, meaning its trying to add fuel to compensate for something, id diagnose that. if you have a negative fuel trim then i just dont know what to tell ya buddy lol. also couldnt hurt to clean the MAF sensor, that has a bigger role in MPG than people think
 
#9 ·
ok sorry it took me awhile to get a around to everything compression test came back good 1 2 3 where right about 180 psi and 4 was at 190. i did clean the MAF just forgot to post it in the first thing. tires are all new with good psi 35 i will bump them up to 40 see if that will help any thing. I looked at the plug by the alternator it looked fine wouldn't that throw a code if it was jacked up? i still need to feel for break drag but i know the 2 disk breaks are not i just changed the rotors on them.

i did look at the fuel trim with the torque app and my Bluetooth odb plug i never stayed in one spot but moved from -6 to 0 to 7 maybe and was never in one spot to long most of the time -2 0 or 2.

im getting like 254 miles per tank
 
#13 ·
ok sorry it took me awhile to get a around to everything compression test came back good 1 2 3 where right about 180 psi and 4 was at 190. i did clean the MAF just forgot to post it in the first thing. tires are all new with good psi 35 i will bump them up to 40 see if that will help any thing. I looked at the plug by the alternator it looked fine wouldn't that throw a code if it was jacked up? i still need to feel for break drag but i know the 2 disk breaks are not i just changed the rotors on them.

i did look at the fuel trim with the torque app and my Bluetooth odb plug i never stayed in one spot but moved from -6 to 0 to 7 maybe and was never in one spot to long most of the time -2 0 or 2.
when you say you looked at fuel trims did you look at short term or long term fuel trims. the short term is what the car is doing right now. the long term will give you a better idea of how the vehicle is performing
im getting like 254 miles per tank
 
#10 ·
Next question would be... How much weight are you hauling around in the car?
A 1.5L engine (If I recall correctly) isn't going to be that powerful anyways. Mileage would dragged down alot if it is pulling lots of weight.
 
#14 ·
Tire size is 175/65 R14. im almost tempted to take it in to a Toyota dealership and pay the 50 bucks to get an estimate i just worry they will say stuff like on change the spark plugs. the only real good part about driving an echo is the mpg and im not getting it lol.
 
#16 ·
Man that is strange... I can only think that maybe a sensor like an air temp? or the MAF is being read wrong. Dunno, if toyota will check all the sensors and make sure they are working correctly. I think taking it toyota might be a waste of time, unless you get seriously lucky and the tech knows the echo/yaris engines really well. It's a gamble I guess.

Did you try a search on here for poor gas or fuel mileage?

I wouldn't try putting in a higher octane fuel. I've had my car for about 4 years and never put anything but the lowest available and always get 42-44 MPG.

I'm thinking it's a sensor, or wire to a sensor, or the computer itself. If it was cheap and easy to swap out the computer I'd try that, but it's not that cheap to do it. Esp, if it's just a GUESS and might produce the same results. Wish I could help you more.

One last question.... It is shifting into OD right? I mean, if you are driving at 45 MPH, and hit the OD switch you should hear the engine rev up. If it doesn't, it's not getting into OD. Also, have you tried running some fuel injector cleaner in the tank? Maybe you got some clogged fuel injectors? Could try that for a few tank fills. Also, how are the wheel bearings? Jack the car up and the tires should spin freely. Have you used the emergency brake lately? Maybe give it a few yanks when your driving to see if it's not just dragging for some reason...

Good Luck to you!
 
#17 ·
I have the same issue with my 02 Echo. Everything is in working order and I still get around 22-25 mpg (mileage has always been poor since I bought the car with 86k and now it has 150k but it has improved some). I've learned to live with it since I don't drive much and I'm hopeful I will eventually find the problem since I'm always working on the car. I highly suspect a small vacuum leak somewhere but a smoke test (done at a shop) did not return anything. I also suspect a small gas leak somewhere since I can always smell gas when I first turn on the car (I'm just guessing since I have no idea what else it could be). I also run fuel system cleaners regularly which has helped some but not much.

Here is a list of all the things I've done to it so far in the last 4 years
New coil packs, new PCV valve that seems to build up carbon really fast, new battery, new spark plugs (5 months old), new throttle body and IAC assembly (bought used with 3k miles on it), new MAF and fully cleaned recently, new fuel injectors (bought used with 40k miles on them), new struts and shocks front/back, K&N air filter recently cleaned, new wheel bearings, new brakes, new rotors, new water pump, diff ECU made no change so I put back the old one, new head gasket replaced about 3 years ago, new exhaust manifold and whole exhaust system includes cat, silencer and muffler, new fuel pump assembly (bought used with 10k on it), new transmission (bought used with 35k on it), new engine oil pan, new transmission speed sensor and new camshaft sensor.

So yeah it's pretty much a new car besides for the engine itself, only things I haven't replaced are the alternator, gas cap, starter, charcoal canister, O2 sensors (I think I might have replaced one of them but I'm not sure). I will try the OD test while I'm driving.
 
#19 ·
http://www.carsdirect.com/car-buying/8-main-causes-of-bad-gas-mileage

You all do know if you leave your air vent in defrost all the way to the right, it will run the AC 100% of the time... So, don't do that. I have forgot and left it in this mode for a few days once.

I guess if I was at my wits end, I'd replace ever 02 sensor I think there is two of them... and replace the injectors with new ones.

could be valves or timing of valves (toyota uses some shim bucket) type... Not just check clearance but the valve seat seal as well...



And like I said before... Check the VVTI system. To me, if I suddenly dropped fuel mileage in half. The VVTI not working would be a good place to start looking for the reason...

http://www.clubxb.com/forums/scion-xb-engine-tech-performance/853-troubleshooting-vvti-system.html

I think the Scion uses the same engine or something pretty close to the echo's engine.

If that didn't solve the problem... Maybe you just got a lemon car and need to move on.

As usual... Good Luck!
 
#20 ·
clean filters
clean MAF/intake
~a FI service~
proper oil viscosity
oem tire size / air pressure
spark plugs /wires /coil
no extra weight
i may have forgot a few things
 
#23 ·
33 still seems lowish. The fuel trims you posted earlier look good though. The rest might be due to speed and possibly a/c use. A/c absolutely tanks economy in my Echo, which averages me 41-45mpg, driven carefully, depending on the season, but more like 25-low 30s with the ac running. 25mpg does not seem out of line for urban/suburban driving with the ac on.
 
#24 ·
I totally agree, "careful driving" means not jackrabbit launches, pretending the breaks are made out of gold so lots of space in front of other cars, keeping it in the fuel range of were overdrive kicks in, and keeping it there... usually my OD kicks in at around 41 mph... So even on a 35, I keep it about above 41. Don't drive over 65. I drive with windows mostly down and the AC off. Here in Hawaii, the fastest you can go is 55 anyway, so I hardly drive over 60. Anyway... 42-44MPH is normal for me. I think I might have a leak in my AC anyway. Works, but it's not super cold, so... I hardly use it.

I was thinking about maybe buying a yaris... but, dunno why, a lot of people report 35MPG average ... Maybe I will regret that... Maybe I should just bite the bullet and get a Prius. My echo is 15 years old and is still getting me 42MPG average.

I was thinking before, maybe test you speedometer is accurate. Your next trip, drive 50 or so mile and make sure it's with in reason. That could put your MPG off in a big way.
 
#26 ·
O2 sensor, plugged cat or EGR for sure. Should get a check engine light if something's up with any of them, but you and I never will. I had a 2000 mitsu mirage that ran weak, poor mileage, no codes. last resort was checking egr. I removed it and initially saw nothing wrong. Then I saw my plugged port that supplies it. Mitsubishi geniuses designed a system where the exhaust that supplies the egr is channeled through the cylinder head into cylinder three exhaust port. Had to remove the exhaust manifold and shove wire through the hole in the head to break apart the chunks, then spray carb cleaner and repeat until the entire passage was clear end to end. Felt like a new car afterwards and went from 28 to 35mpg local driving. I don't know the echo setup, but if your egr is ok, then your cat is plugged. If you can, remove your catalytic converter (if you have two, remove the first one) or remove the entire pipe where it connects to the exhaust manifold and look inside the cat inlet side. Should look like a fine screen. If it is sooty, if it looks like exhaust can't get through easily, you found your problem. If you don't want to shell out money for a new cat, drill a 3/8 or smaller hole SLOWLY from inlet to outlet of the cat. Don't wiggle while you drill, you'll break off large chunks of that honeycomb stuff, you need just a small passageway to help the exhaust flow as it should. If you drill too much, you'll lose backpressure which is necessary for the egr to work, and you will probably set a code for your cat not working. WEAR A GOOD MASK, that stuff you drill is most likely carcinogenic and will cloud up the entire place.
 
#30 ·
my 2000 echo mpg has me stuped? it has 226,xxx miles.

i have changed the oil, spark plugs(SK16R11), air filter, cleaned the throttle body, got an alignment, checked tire psi, ran a bottle of Techron in the tank.

but i still keep getting around like 24-25 mpg??? there are no check engine lights. and if i track mgp in the torque app it has me around 34.

do you guys have any idea what could be causing the poor MPG?
i feel like maybe its evaporating and thats why torque is reporting higher? but wouldn't it throw a code
I have the same problem!!
I had a 2001 echo with over 210,000mi on it and it always got about 37mpg. I bought another echo (a 2002) a year ago (with 75,000mi) and it gets between 29 and 34mpg on very careful driving. the engine runs great yet there is something causing poor fuel efficiency. I have also replaced and cleaned many of the things stated in this blog. I calculate my efficiency the good ol fashion way.
Did you ever figure it out??
 
#31 ·
Same here -2005 Echo 137 000 miles 23 mpg/city on Uber delvery and 30 mpg highway. it was giving me 17mpg in the winter in city. Apparently O2 sensor- the one before the cat - changed and got the numbers above. And those are during the spring temperatures. I used to have error codes for my charcoal canister not working properly and also when I fuel at the gas pump pistol kicks back earlier before the tank is full . There is something wrong with vent solenoid. Never bother to fix it- at some point ECU stopped showing the Engine light like everything is in order. And also at first start there is a strong smell of gasoline. I guess this might be the reason for a poor gas mileage - I don`t know. At the same time - My 2006 Corolla with the same mileage on odometer still gives me 29 mpg/city. Didn`t do any compression test yet on the Echo though.
 
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