Diesel in US?

[ericisbacchus]

Does anyone know if Toyota is going to release the diesel version (which I think is available in Europe) over here in the States?

[ECHOKnight2000]

Originally Posted by ericisbacchus

Does anyone know if Toyota is going to release the diesel version (which I think is available in Europe) over here in the States?

Here's my educated guess...no. Are you talking about the Yaris? Not anytime soon from what I read about diesels in America. Most Americans including myself are ignorant on diesels-meaning we still have the outdated mind set of there (diesels) are dirty and loud and very polluting. Some of that is still true. But times are changing and technology has and is still catching up-meaning the diesels or most of them now a days especially in Europe are cleaner and they meet Europe's stringent emission laws. The market is so much bigger in Europe than it is in America as far as diesels go. So right now it doesn't make sense to bring it over. From what I read the EPA has or is going to approve these so called newer cleaner diesels for 2007 so that means automakers might be more willing to bring them over...it depends on what the competition does, but hybrids are so popular and get just as good of gas milage and are cleaner overall than diesels. I think Toyota is set on banking on hybrids rather than diesels right now and maybe for a very long time...who knows they could combine both kinds a diesel/hybrid-although that might sound redundant. Sorry for the novel. That's just a brief over view as obviously there's more to it. Hope that helps!!

[ericisbacchus]

Originally Posted by ECHOKnight2000

That's just a brief over view as obviously there's more to it. Hope that helps!!

Yes it does. Thanks!

My thing is - I am just so sick of gas prices, and our dependence on foreign oil, not to mention pollution. I'd like for my next car to be superior in all of those.

A retail gas station just started selling biodiesel (B20) here in our city. I wouldn't mind having a diesel car, but I sure don't want a VW. From what I've heard from there owners, they aren't very reliable. I work with a lady who has two 2005 TDIs, and they both have already had more mechanical problems than my 2000 Solara has.
From what I hear Toyota makes a really high-quality diesel engine.

Oh well. I'm probably a few years off from buying anyway, so maybe a commercial plug-in Prius will be available by then.

[andmann18t]

Originally Posted by ericisbacchus

Yes it does. Thanks!

My thing is - I am just so sick of gas prices, and our dependence on foreign oil, not to mention pollution. I'd like for my next car to be superior in all of those.

A retail gas station just started selling biodiesel (B20) here in our city. I wouldn't mind having a diesel car, but I sure don't want a VW. From what I've heard from there owners, they aren't very reliable. I work with a lady who has two 2005 TDIs, and they both have already had more mechanical problems than my 2000 Solara has.
From what I hear Toyota makes a really high-quality diesel engine.

Oh well. I'm probably a few years off from buying anyway, so maybe a commercial plug-in Prius will be available by then.

Hi,

Just reading about the diesel question. Up here in Canada we have a lot of VW diesels, as they have the largest market for cars. I have never spoken to a VW owner of a diesel that didn't love it. I was a machanic for over 10 years and most VW owners here only buy VW's.
The engines that are being produced for Canada are very very clean and we have now finally moved to cleaner diesel fuel, ( which is were most of the crap comes from not the car its self )
The polution that is produced from a diesel has more solids in it which is what gives that dark smoke or smell in the older models, however the polution from gasoline is much much more toxic and complex.
I know of 2 people right now that have more than 500K on there diesel VW's and all they really change is the brakes, and light bulbs.
They do cost up there though which is why at least for now I have bought a Yaris, ( coming on the 29th ) I am hoping to get better mileage for less cash than I do with my '01 VW 1.8T. ( great car btw,, 125K and still running on factory brakes, timing belt etc. just done oil changes and a coolent sensor ). The VW market in the US is very different then up here they are just not doing nearly as well then up here.

If I had my choice I would drive a hydrogen hybrid, nothing like pumping out pure O2 as your polution, and putting in water and your fuel.

[kamesama980]

given that 99% of the US population is retarded and thinks diesel is only for heavy duty trucks and their car will be slow all the other problems listed above, along with the lack of any other diesel (new) car that i know of (aside from VW TDI)....i would estimate no. most americans and most of what we americans do and believe in is backwards and retarded so hey, whats one more thing.


sorry, bitter/tired, late night/bad day

[gideon1331]

In regards to diesel reducing dependance on oil, consider this. It takes 25% more crude oil to create a gallon of diesel than it does a gallon of gasoline. Therefore, using a diesel car only reduces oil consumption by the % increase in mileage, - 20%. Also, producing a gallon of diesel releases 17% more CO2 than producing a gallon of gas.

Since diesel is cheaper in Europe, there have not been regulations passed restricting its use because of pollution. In the United States, any state that has adopted the CARB standards cannot sell a diesel car, with pollution as the reason. Granted diesels have made incredible leaps in cleanliness (My Aunt had 2 early/mid 80's mercedes diesels and those things were filthy), they still have a ways to go before they are clean enough for this country.

A 2005 Gasoline Jetta was given a score of 8 (out of 10) by the EPA for emissions, while the diesel version was given 4. A Prius naturally earns 10.

The same issue arrises with people saying "why buy a hybrid, a diesel mileage that good too." It comes down to pollution. To pass CARB standards, a car needs to ratain its emissions quality for at least 150,000 miles, and it is well known that diesels get much worse as they get older.

[stuts]

This is off topic I heard that the one reason they have not brought the Smart Cars in to the U.S. which is a diesel motor by the way was because the emissions aren’t low enough for the U.S. emission control laws is their any truth to this and if you don’t know what the Smart car is here is a website

http://www.canadiandriver.com/articl...tcabriolet.htm

[gideon1331]

Originally Posted by stuts

This is off topic I heard that the one reason they have not brought the Smart Cars in to the U.S. which is a diesel motor by the way was because the emissions aren’t low enough for the U.S. emission control laws is their any truth to this and if you don’t know what the Smart car is here is a website

http://www.canadiandriver.com/articl...tcabriolet.htm

Yes, there is truth to that. The car would pass federal emissions, but any state that has adopted the California emissions standards (and they are growing in number) would not allow it to be sold. Being a small diesel, it would most likely pass emissions when knew but not until the 150,000 mile mark that is mandated by California emissions.

Some very small cars arn't allowed here because they wont pass federal safety requirements, but judging by the crash test info Google gave me, I dont think that would be an issue with the Smart Car...it seemed to do quite well, especially with its size.

[stuts]

Gideon1331 what does this mean “Being a small diesel, it would most likely pass emissions when knew but not until the 150,000 mile mark that is mandated by California emissions.”

Can you please further explain what the 150,000 mile mark is please also if you want to see some nice videos on crash test for smart cars go to this website or search Google smart car crash tests this thing is amazing from what I have read one of the safest cars on the road its amazing


http://www.mercedes-benz.ca/mbccustom/smart/safety/event.cfm

[gideon1331]

As cars get older, they generally have an increase in emissions. Diesel engines suffer from this greatly because they have such a high level of particulate (soot) emissions that it will clog up any emissions control/reduction device(s) that may be on the car.

Under the California Air Resources Board (CARB) emissions regulations, the emission control systems on a car must keep the pollutants emitted under a certain level for the first 150,000 miles. It also requires the car's manufacturer to warranty the emission control system (eg catalytic converter) for 150,000 miles should it ever stop being effective during that time.

Many current diesels will not pass the stringent CARB regulations when they are new, let alone 150,000 miles down the road. Since the smart car has such a small diesel engine, it could possibly pass the CARB standards when it is new, but being a diesel there is no way it would be able to retain even a moderately low level of emissions for a long time.

Diesels have been cleaned up greatly in terms of emissions, but they are still very filthy engines because of the nature of the burn. Since the engine relies on pressure and heat to literally emplode the diesel fuel, it is a very fast and violent reaction which creates a superb amount of torque, but also produces a high level of soot. In recent years, redesignes of engines have been able to reduce the size of the soot that is produced, but it is still there.

[stuts]

Thank you for explaining the 150,000 miles thing I hope the smart cars will be able to hit the U.S. market sooner than later I have always wished that North America would have more diesel cars as the only hugely bad part about diesel is as you said Soot diesel is a much cleaner burning fuel than gas it has less of an impact on are planet as well but soot is the big problem and it effects human health more than gasoline does so for now we are stuck with more gas cars than anything

[gideon1331]

Exactly. The soot is an extreme carconigen. Although diesel does emit less CO2 when it is burned, and the car uses less diesel than gas, diesel takes more crude oil to create and emits much more CO2 during the refining process than gasoline does. This pretty much eliminates the CO2 benefits at the tailpipe and the amount of oil that people think that they are saving. Combined with the other very hasardous components of diesel exaust, it is just as bad as gasoline in the areas of foreign oil dependance, and worse in the way of overall emissions.

Granted I love the torque of a diesel, I would rather have the far greater torque of an electric motor, the far less crude oil consumption, and lower emissions of a hybrid. When you factor in the added cost of a diesel engine and the higher cost of repairs and maintenence (My Aunt's 3L diesels took 10 quarts of expensive diesel-engine oil), it makes much more sense to me to go the hybrid route, especially because if it is purchased in a CARB state the entire hybrid system is seen as emission control, and thus has a 150,000 mile warranty.

[stuts]

Man gideon1331 you seem to be a well informed individual just a couple things here isent gas a bay product of diesel I may be way off but I think it is also ya with the cost of repairing a diesel car that is one reason I did not look at buying one definitely more maintenance to be done I agree with the hybrid things I love em I wish I could of afforded one but not this time for sure next time its great to here the U.S. is jumping on the band wagon with hybrids I read that in New York City by like 2010 something like that all taxi cabs must be hybrids isn’t that great to hear anyways off to watch some playoff Hockey

[gideon1331]

Diesel and gasoline are both products of crude oil. I don't know exactly how the process works, but it does take more crude oil to create diesel...perhaps because diesel is thicker, but I don't really know.

[N1XRR]

Originally Posted by gideon1331

Diesel and gasoline are both products of crude oil. I don't know exactly how the process works, but it does take more crude oil to create diesel...perhaps because diesel is thicker, but I don't really know.

I was just looking around for info on the Yaris when I ran into this thread. I'm sorry to say but your information is very very wrong.

First off, the production yeild of gasoline vs diesel per barrel is based off of more than just how much crude you get. One major contributing factor is that the bases diesel and gasoline in the oil are two completely seperate types of petroleum. Gasoline is made from the light weight part of the oil, and diesel is made from the medium weight part of the oil (heavy weight is for things like motor oil.)

A barrel of sweet crude (light, low sulfur) will give a basic yield of about 30% gasoline; a barrel of medium sour about 21% gasoline, and a barrel of heavy sour crude of about 14% gasoline.

Similarly, sweet crude will yield about 34% middle distillates (diesel, jet fuel, heating oil); medium sour, about 26%; heavy sour, about 22%.

The EPA only recently listed diesel soot as a "likely carcinogen", as in, they are still studying it. Refer to: http://www.planetark.org/dailynewsstory.cfm?newsid=8575

As for diesel soot, the only reason why its a problem right now is because there has been very little regulation on diesel emissions so far until, like you noted, CARB started restricting it. The soot problem will be addressed very soon, as European and American regulations are changing. The new "clean" diesel which will be start being rolled out this year and is supposed to be in full effect next year requires sulfer to be less than 15 ppm (parts per million). Compare that to 300 ppm right now.

Why is sulfer being addressed? Soot is mostly burned sulfer. And to top it all off, particle filters are starting to be installed on small diesels to eliminate soot.

Where did you get the numbers of it taking 20% more CO2 to produce diesel? What about NOx, O2 and other HFC's?

I'm not trying to start anything here, but there is a lot of mis-information in the above posts.