So my 2000 Echo has been running great, no complaints at all. Then one day car won't crank, so I jump it and it starts fine and takes me to and from the grocery store. Next, it fails to start again. Hook it up to the batter charger, and it quickly (<15 minutes) goes to very low amperage, so I figure battery (>= 6 years old ) is dead and take it to the parts store, where they confirm this.
I buy a new battery, pop it in the car and attach the cables. I crank the engine and it starts right up like it always has, so I install the battery hold- down go eat dinner. A few hours later, I try to start the car again and it cranks but will not start. I can hear the engine combust a bit, and it almost catches, but then it just cranks.
It occurs to me now that I accidentally tapped the negative terminal with my wrench when I was tightening the positive terminal. It gave a slight spark, but it was so fast it didn't even make my wrench hot, and since the car started up like normal right after this, I didn't really give it any thought. Could this have caused some problem?
I've checked the EFI fuse, the EFI main relay, the circuit opening relay. I've checked for voltage at (and between) the EFI main relay and circuit opening relay with ignition off and on, there is voltage at the proper times (according to the wiring diagram). I've checked the spark at all four cylinders (and replaced the plugs in the process of that--I did gap the new plugs) and the fuel pump operates both on manual application of voltage and when you crank the engine. I have not checked fuel pressure, I don't have a pressure gauge (but the gas sure was flowing when I detached the fuel line). This car gets driven almost daily, so old gas shouldn't be an issue. I've hooked up my scan tool and there are no DTC codes and no freeze frame data.
Does anyone have any ideas? Where do I go from here? I really don't have the money to take this to a mechanic right now, so if anyone has some pointers I would be much obliged.
The original problem was the engine did not turn over, or it turned over but did not start?
When tightening the positive battery terminal you touched the wrench to the negative terminal and the result was a spark. The car started up though after this?
Typically if battery cables are reversed a fuse(s) blows not a relay, etc.
Before this current no engine start problem, did the engine have problems starting when hot, cold, neither, both?
The original problem was the engine did not turn over, or it turned over but did not start?
Did not turn over.
Quote:
Originally Posted by toyomoho
When tightening the positive battery terminal you touched the wrench to the negative terminal and the result was a spark. The car started up though after this?
Yes. After attaching the battery cables but before installing the hold-down I started the car. I suppose maybe the incident could have occurred after I started the car, but I only installed the hold-down after I started it--so I don't see how it would have happened then. So I guess I'm pretty sure but not positive it started after this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by toyomoho
Typically if battery cables are reversed a fuse(s) blows not a relay, etc.
Perhaps I will check all the fuses.
Quote:
Originally Posted by toyomoho
Before this current no engine start problem, did the engine have problems starting when hot, cold, neither, both?
No, it has always started and run great in all types of weather since I've had it (2004). Summers here get in the 90's F and winters get < 0 F at times, so definitely a wide range of weather it has worked well in.
Quote:
Originally Posted by toyomoho
The engine has spark at all 4 the spark plugs?
Yes spark at all four, and I replaced all four too. They weren't in terrible condition, but not so great either.
As an update, I checked every fuse in the car, and they were all fine. Also, I am following some of the diagnostics in the service manual. I am on page "DI-138" to check the "ECM power source circuit".
Step 1 is to check the voltage between +B and E1 of the ECM connector with ignition switch on. OK is 9 - 14 V. When I connected these two terminals, the needle on my voltmeter deflected ever so slightly. I turned it to the 0.5 VDC setting and the needle still barely moved. Certainly, not anywhere near 9 volts.
NG of step 1 leads me to step 2 - check for open in harness and connector between E1 of ECM and body ground. There is continuity (albiet with about 1750kohm resistance) between E1 and body ground.
This leads me to step 3 - check EFI relay, which I already did. Then step 4 - check EFI fuse, which I already did.
Step 5 - check for open between EFI relay and battery, EFI relay and ECM. According to the wiring diagram, terminal 5 of the EFI relay comes from the battery via the EFI fuse and the "fusible link block". Voltage between EFI relay terminal 5 and ground was 11 V. Also according to the diagram, terminal 3 of the EFI relay goes through "instrument panel J/B" and on to +B on the ECM. There is continuity between the +B terminal and terminal 3 of the EFI relay, with about 1750kohm resistance.
Since that checked out, it leads me to step 6 - check ignition switch. It tells me to reference page "BE-15" for this, but this page appears to assume you have the ignition switch removed, and I can't find anything specifically that says how to do that. Looking at page "SR-11" through "SR-14" for the "tilt steering column components" and "tilt steering column removal" it appears that to access the ignition switch I'll have to remove the airbag, steering wheel (necessitating my purchase of a steering wheel puller) just to get the lower cover of the steering column off...and then I assume I can get to the ignition? Please tell me there is an easier way?
Last edited by poorboywilly; 01-14-2010 at 06:49 PM.
Reason: more info added
have you checked to see what part of the electrical system is drawing power?
put an ammeter in series on the negative terminal and pull out fuses/relays one at a time
I'm a little lost here... did you check to make sure the alnernator is recharging the battery? If the alternator is bad, the battery can not recharge. A bad alternator can also over charge the battery and also damage it. anyways, last time I had a battery probelm I also had a bad alternator.
I'm a little lost here... did you check to make sure the alnernator is recharging the battery? If the alternator is bad, the battery can not recharge. A bad alternator can also over charge the battery and also damage it. anyways, last time I had a battery probelm I also had a bad alternator.
I can't really imagine the alternator is the problem. After replacing the battery, it ran just fine once (for about 30 seconds). If the battery were just undercharged, I would think the car would start now with a jump (it doesn't).
So you got a crank? Just want an update. If no crank, bad starter. If it cranks, starts, and dies on you, bad starter since the flywheel isnt jiving with your car.
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'02 Toyota Tundra iForce V8 TRD AC THUNDER "FRACKING" GREY METALLIC 97000 miles
So you got a crank? Just want an update. If no crank, bad starter. If it cranks, starts, and dies on you, bad starter since the flywheel isnt jiving with your car.
Correct, I've got a crank, spark at all cylinders, and the fuel pump is operating. It doesn't start at all--when I crank the engine, there is a little "bump" (I do mean little, it doesn't sound very close to starting) about the time that it would normally fire up and then after that it just cranks.
Sounds like a bad starter to me. Mine did that in the Avy then it wouldn't even crank. (when it did, the engine started and then it would poorly idle then die). Dont trust me on all of this, since I'm not there to actually see it, but it does sound like the starter is on its way to car heaven/hell.
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'02 Toyota Tundra iForce V8 TRD AC THUNDER "FRACKING" GREY METALLIC 97000 miles
Theres a possibility the battery terminals are corroded to the point whereby they are only giving intermittent power or the ground connection on the other end of the black wire isnt making a good ground.I'd clean em good just to eliminate the possibility,especially both ends of that ground wire.
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) is dead and take it to the parts store, where they confirm this.
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