3.5 Knocking tapping has been fixed!

[Ryan_V]

It's time for beers cause my 3.5 that has been knocking or tapping for 40k miles now has been officially fixed under warranty!

History-

We bought this 2008 Sienna 3.5 'certified' vehicle with 42k miles. Fairly soon after I noticed that after startup and putting the van into any gear, the rpms would drop and it would start tapping.
Video link->

You Tube

You Tube

The tapping would continue loudly until the van was very warm, about 15min of regular driving.

I made several trips to different dealerships to have them look and everytime they said it was normal, and I walked away pissed off because me being a gearhead and having worked on and built and replaced turbo motors all by myself/self learned for over 10yrs, knew this wasn't normal.


One time in particular the service drive manager told me face to face, "you definitely have the VVTI problem, but you don't have the check engine light so Toyota won't pay for the repairs" - This is what I was told by two different dealerships.

This entire time I'm thinking, OK- that it has the TSB for the VVTI gear as the sound was very prominent from the top side near the front VVTI gear.

One thing that I have learned recently though from working on my Lexus with the 1JZGTE twin turbo swap is that knocking/tapping sounds can reflect/travel through the metals. Case in point- My 1JZGTE power steering pump has failed twice. I actually replaced it the first time straight away with a cheap rebuilt unit, and the second time the knocking tricked me into thinking the ac pump was blown when it was the power steering pump knocking again. (my lesson learned here was to never use a cheap rebuilt power steering pump!)

With that said-

I recently found the actual official 2009 TSB for the VVTi gear noise someone had posted up online and I printed it out and studied it. Basically it was there in BLACK and WHITE. "If the customer complains about this noise, you need to fix it and here's what you do".

After finding this TSB document I immediately contacted Toyota HQ in California again and opened a case about this. They did see that I had been to all 3 dealerships in the Austin area to have this looked at.

The very next morning the dealership representative contacted me about this issue. I have to note- He was very skeptical, and even sounded annoyed that I had contacted Toyota HQ as if I was wasting his time, and that I couldn't possibly know if the van had a real issue.

During this conversation he told me that he'd like me to speak to the shop foreman.

We decided it was best to let the van sit overnight and have the shop foreman inspect it first thing in the morning.

I called the dealer and asked for the foreman directly as I was tired of dealing with the 'second hand' knowledge of the service advisors.

I was very pleased to hear that the shop foreman did agree that there was a noise worth looking into and that it didn't sound normal.

He was sure it wasn't the VVTI gear noise(which is why the previous techs might've said it was normal.)

He thought that one cylinder was making the noise as if there was a bad piston or rod that had too much clearance.

Basically there was a very serious issue, and my concerns were entirely validated at this point.

Now the next issue was who was going to cover the work and our rental van we had been driving. After I made the shop foreman aware I had the '100k full platinum warranty 'through Toyota Care he said that, "we should be able to get this covered under warranty".

At that point I knew we had truly reached the summit of the mountain. The next hurdle was having the warranty adjuster come out and inspect it himself and agree it had a problem worth fixing, in his mind.

There's a few choices here that were made that helped tremendously at this point in time-
1. van left overnight again for warranty adjuster to inspect cold warmup
2. shop foreman kept the keys so that adjuster couldn't inspect the van himself. (if you cant assure this happens, you need to meet the adjuster at the dealer yourself standing there while he inspects your vehicle)
3. shop foreman helping to convince adjuster there was a problem(after 15min its noted that the adjuster basically convinced himself there was an issue when the noise went on for 15-20min)

Now that the warranty adjuster agreed to submit the paperwork for a new shortblock,crank,rods, piston,rings,bearings and all additional parts needed. The Toyota extra care folks back at the office had to approve the repairs.

Now I'm glad I purchased that 'Platinum 7yr/100k mile warranty' because Toyota Extra Care approved the repairs!!

The dealer parts department wasted no time in ordering all the necessary parts and they replaced the shortblock in about 12 days total.

My portion was $120 total

I can now say that I'm relieved, happy and satisfied at this point in time.

I now feel my investment into the van was a good decision and that we will pay it off and drive it for years to come.

Ryan

[paulbot]

Very nicely done, Ryan. This post caught my eye because of a slight tapping noise our 08 XLE Limited has. Fortunately for us, though, brother inlaw works at the dealer where we purchased ours, so we should have no problems getting it taken care of.

Thanks for the informative post.

Paul

[pcleary]

Ryan,
Thanks for the info. I am scouring the web / forums for information on my issue, trying to find anyone with knowledge or experience that can help me out. I am currently in contact with the dealer trying to work through the issue, but I have a feeling I am going to be told to pound sand.

I included my little recording of my sound below, the last 6-7 seconds are the most interesting. I'm curious if you had any thoughts, I appreciate any help I can get at this point.

The car is a 2010 RX with only a few thousand miles on it.

My symptoms are:
1. Most apparent on a cold start.
2. Not very apparent in idle, only under load or in gear.
3. Most audible in cold weather (40s or below). Even though you can hear it at warmer temps.
4. Most audible in low RPM / low gear. Yes, it is there at higher RPMs, but at that time the other normal engine noise tends to drown out the ticking or knocking noise.
5. Sound lasts about 10 minutes or so until the engine is sufficiently warmed up. It maybe there when it is fully warmed up, but it would be barely audible.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SpayE-Cntxk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SpayE-Cntxk

[Ryan_V]

These motors are apparently entirely forged motors. That means that the pistons and rods slightly expand during warmup. They should be built within tolerance that you don't hear the expansion which is referred to as 'piston slap'.

I'm almost certain your lower end pistons or rod clearances are out of spec and you have 'piston or rod slap'.

In order for this to go away you would need a new shortblock.

Granted, the dealer and Toyota may be reluctant to actually repair this as it may not ever cause a failure.

with only a few thousand mile on the vehicle I would contact your local 'lemon law' people and see what they can do.

I would also contact Toyota HQ and open a case for documentation. Tell them you would like the shop foreman to inspect the vehicle on a completely cold startup.

Pretty much I think you have the similar issue to ours, but your shortblock tolerances are actually worse than ours was as we had a single cylinder making noise. You seem to have multiple cylinders with tolerance issues.

that's my 0.02

Ryan

[pcleary]

Ryan,
Thanks a lot.

I had the car in for the noise one time, and the Service Advisor told me it was the fuel injectors and that the sound was normal. I tried to "live" with the sound, but couldn't and called back the advisor after a few weeks. After pressing the service advisor a little, he suggested to bring the car back in so the foreman could listen to it, and I would come in and drive it with them.

I went back in, and met with the assistant foreman (the main foreman was out), and took the car for a drive on a cold start. The sound was audible, but not as horrendous as it is when it is colder. It is spring and the temp outside was around 45 when I did the test drive. I also test drove 2 other 2010 RX loaners to see if I could here the issue (and I did not).

The assistant foreman indicated that it was a "piston slap". At first, he said you could hear it on all engines in all cars, but then after driving the a few loaners without the issue, he said my sound was definitely louder, and the next step was to setup an appointment with the "local rep" to look at the car. They definitely started laying the ground work for "the engine mechanically works fine".

The rep is to look at it tomorrow sometime with the "main" shop foreman. I am going to try and meet with them in person if possible. Any tips on what I should tell the foreman / rep when I talk to them? Any help is appreciated. Thank you so much for the quick reply. I anticipate they are going to tell me to go pound sand.

Thanks again

[Ryan_V]

Well, I think your are in a good position here. I would definitely make sure the car hasnt been started the entire day until the rep gets there.

MAKE SURE THE CAR GETS PUT INTO GEAR SOON AFTER STARTING as the rpm's drop low and the engine will make more noise if it's out of spec.

I would also meet him there if at all possible, and I would have the foreman there to look at the same time.

Im not sure what you can actually tell them other than you know that my van was fixed for a similar issue.

Make sure you have a case open with Toyota HQ in California so they are aware.

If the sound is loud enough to hear, the rep will hear it. If he tries to say it's normal, tell him you don't agree at all, and have never heard a 'normal' car that has piston slap like this everyday, and that you will be back until it is fixed, and that you have contacted Toyota HQ.


You have to be persistant to the point of annoying. It's SAD but true.

R-

[pcleary]

Thanks again, how do I open a case with Toyota HQ? I'll do that today.

I'll post a reply once I have more info. I have a feeling this isn't going to go well tomorrow, I've been preparing myself for a few days now so I can express disappointment without throwing chairs.

[Ryan_V]

Well I wasn't expecting the adjuster to actually agree to fix mine either so you may be suprised. I think the main thing is that if he knows you are fully aware of the issue and arent the typical ignorant consumer. The game changes.

Listen to the menu and press the button for reporting an issue. They've been really respectuful when Ive called.

Just tell them what's going on and to open a case and they should contact the dealership. If yours is a Lexus you need to conatct Lexus...the number is below.

Toyota HQ Contact info
Phone: 800-331-4331
Fax: 310-468-7814
Mon - Fri, 5:00 am - 6:00 pm PST
Sat, 7:00 am - 4:00 pm PST


Lexus HQ contact info
General Inquiries: 1-800-255-3987 (Option 2)
For general inquires about Lexus, our vehicles or our dealers, press 2.
TTY/TTD Users: Dial 711; request the operator to dial 1-800-255-3987
Monday - Friday, 8 a.m. - 9 p.m., EST. Saturday, 10 a.m. - 7 p.m., EST.
Vehicle or Dealership Experience: 1-800-255-3987 (Option 3)
To share your vehicle or dealer experience with us, press 3.
TTY/TTD Users: Dial 711; request the operator to dial 1-800-255-3987
Monday - Friday, 8 a.m. - 9 p.m., EST. Saturday, 10 a.m. - 7 p.m., EST.

[grandpapa]

Ryan_V

Would it be possible for you to post a new youtube after the engine work so we can hear the different?

thanks

[Ryan_V]

Hey that's a good idea.


If you want to hear something amazing. I now think I have the VVTI gear startup rattle that last for a split second while the vvti gear get's oil pressure.

Anyways, yes I will get another cold start video for you guys.

[pcleary]

Ryan,
Quick update. I could not meet with the Factory Technician that saw the car (unfortunately). But I did go in person to meet with the Head Foreman.

The gist of the response from the Factory Tech is that the car has a "normal piston slap". I told them that was an oxymoron. I told them that the sound was not normal, and that a piston slap was not normal. The foreman was very nice and courteous. I have a feeling that there isn't much he can do at this point.

It was unfortunate, because the Factory Tech didn't drive the car until the middle of the day when the temps were well into the 50s, so it was likely not as loud as it is in the 20s and 30s, even low 40s. The foreman agreed, indicating that it was louder when he drove it earlier in the week first thing in the morning.

I opened up a case with Lexus to push this further. I told them that I cannot accept that it is a normal condition, and I cannot live with the sound. I don't know where I can go from here or what my options are. I am going to wait for the Specialist to contact me and go from there. I presume, worst case scenario is I wait until next winter when the temps are regularly in the 20s and go in again.

I try and "hope" that this will be resolved now that I am getting assigned a specialist, but any hope of remediation is dwindling I'm afraid.

I would almost love to just sell the car, take any kind of loss, and buy something else.

Thanks for your help

[Ryan_V]

I don't blame you. I think that Toyota in particular have ran from this problem since day one. They aren't owning up, period and they have the dealerships serving up these lines to paying customers. "oh its normal piston slap" nevermind it lasts for 15min..."oh its definitely the VVTI problem, but youhave no check engine light"...what a crock, get real.

That's why mine didn't get fixed under factory warranty. Toyota Extra Care actually paid for and fixed my van.

But given that you only have 3k miles on yours...60k miles is a long time to wait to get your motor repaired.

This just disgusts me thoroughly.

[Ryan_V]

Do you by chance have any 'lemon laws' in your state?

In Texas we have a lemon law. You pay $30 for the paperwork fee, and you fill out this sheet. Basically, they want to see that you've been to the dealer 3 seperate documented times. You write all that stuff down and they review your case. If they deem that you have a lemon, by law they will make Toyota either replace, repair or give you back your money.

I would look into this as a possible option.

[pcleary]

We do have lemon laws in my state. I will go down that route if I have to.

For the time being, I am going to take the path of pursuing all other means to get this resolved. My approach is to let them know that I am very serious about getting an acceptable resolution, and that I cannot accept "just live with it" as an option.

I would rather get on the radar of a decision maker, have that person understand that I am serious, and fix the issue knowing that once legal is involved it will get expensive for Toyota.

Thanks again

[grandpapa]

Lemon law applies to the same problem, fix after fix (at least that's how it work in my state). In this case, I don't think you can do much with Lemon Law since no one can really agree on the problem yet.
They can keep saying noise is subjective and everything is working "normally" expect a little too loud. There is some design issue on that engine (I believe) but I can understand Toyota's position as well.

I do believe Ryan_V's end result is an expection/luck. 99% of the time, we will have to either live with the noise or to trade in our car