Vaporlock 2011 Sienna requires entire new engine with cost of over 10k - Toyota Nation Forum : Toyota Car and Truck Forums

ChristinaInCA · 02-05-2012, 01:42 PM

Hi Toyota community and Sienna enthusiasts,
I'd like to share the story of my 2011 Toyota Sienna XLE. About me: I'm a mom of 3 and live near San Francisco. We purchased the Sienna, our second, because if its reputation as a safe family vehicle. My first Sienna was a 2006. We traded in for the 2011 because of the new design and extra space. We were happy with our new van until precisely 2 weeks ago.

It was a wet day as I drove my husband to the bus stop beside the 101, our main interstate. The approach is prone to flooding with saltwater from the Bay pretty regularly. On this day there was water on the road - maybe 6-8 inches? - you had to drive through it to get to the bus stop/onto the 101. When driving a few feet from the bus stop at no more than 10mph, my engine stopped and I lost control of the car - couldn't steer, couldn't brake. Super scary. I was unable to start the engine. It was towed to the Dealer.

The dealer service center has diagnosed my van with a condition called 'vaporlock' and insists that this is not a warranty issue. There is no water in the interior of the van, but apparently there was enough water to somehow enter the air filter/compressor in the engine. This seems far-fetched to me. Now the entire engine is a total loss. That's right, the entire engine must be replaced. They say water entered the compressor and bent the rod. Fortunately I am insured under my comprehensive policy. But I want to get the word out regarding my experience and see if others have encountered this. I just can't figure how it happened, cars of all sizes were driving by, this is the only way to exit the 101 - I wasn't 'offroading' in my mini-van.

I have been unhappy regarding how the Toyota dealer attributes the occurrence to my 'decision to drive in water.' Their theory is that a bus drove by, it created a splash and caused the infiltration. Naturally Toyota opines that this is not a warranty issue. I am insistent that I was driving responsibly on a public road in wet, but not extraordinary, circumstances.

I feel as though Toyota is giving me the run-around and there may be some sort of design flaw they want to hide. I am worried about getting the car back and having problems down the line, such as issues with the brakes or electrical. They told me there was rust in the engine. We are a Toyota family - between my parents and sisters we own 7 models. This is the first time we've ever heard of vapor/hydro lock. I would appreciate your advice/feedback. - Thank you, Christina

2011sienna · 02-05-2012, 02:25 PM

You need to get an independent mechanic to look at it and a Lawyer
When Toyota told you that their was RUST they are saying you have had this problem for awhile.
Good Luck

Jdracer · 02-05-2012, 06:05 PM

You really have to choose your words wisely, I've delt with Toyota with a similar problem. You really just have to play dumb when they ask you specific questions. You say, "it just stopped working" if they ask you about the water you say, "what water". They'll do just about anything to get out of a warrentty job.

skinny2 · 02-05-2012, 06:32 PM

Well I don't think there's much denying that the engine lock was caused from driving through the water. In that case, it's not Toyota's problem and a claim on your comprehensive policy is correct. I'm not saying that because I'm a Toyota fan....because I'm not. My wife just likes the Sienna. That being said, if the van was being driving slowly and it was 6"-8" of water you could certainly argue that the van is of a poor design for abnormal conditions. If driving more than a crawl or there was other traffic (waves) you very likely could suck significant water into the intake. As for the rust...saltwater sucked into the engine would rust a lot of things sitting there even if it's just a day or two.

The lesson here is...the Sienna may not be able to handle driving through more than a couple inches of water. There's a lot of cars out there that shouldn't be driving through 8" of water and given the ground clearance of the Ody (lower than many cars) it certainly seems plausible.

akphs · 02-05-2012, 07:15 PM

I'm with skinny2 here, I'm afraid. I know someone else who totaled a Ford Ranger doing something similar. Once enough water gets into the cylinders, it's a case of uncompressible water vs. connecting rod strength. Water wins every time.

Even if other vehicles were going through the water, a fluke could have splashed water into the air intake. Yes, it could be a poor design, but 8-10 inches of water is beyond normal design specs.

As others noted, salt water will rust things pretty quickly. And if this is a common occurrence, you may have splashed a bit of water in on previous days, enough to cause some rust ("in the engine" is a bit vague!). Since the block and heads are aluminum, the rust wasn't there anyway (unless they're calling aluminum oxide "rust", which it isn't, nor does it look like rust).

Sorry to be so negative. Stay out of ponds in the future...

ChristinaInCA · 02-05-2012, 10:14 PM

Thanks Guys! Regretfully driving onto the 101 through saltwater is a reality of living here. I know that sounds crazy but the CalTrans agency who oversees that is staffed with a bunch of morans. I don't live in some backwater part of the State but right by the Golden Gate Bridge.
My husband thinks it was more like 4-6 inches of water and the intake/airfilter is so high up. Just all seems so unlikely. But it could happen again and it was a scary experience.
I am especially concerned about the potential for future issues.

MatrixPC · 02-06-2012, 12:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2011sienna

You need to get an independent mechanic to look at it and a Lawyer
When Toyota told you that their was RUST they are saying you have had this problem for awhile.
Good Luck

Do what he said. You need independent good mechanic and a lawyer.
Best of all, play dump. Sometime "I don't know" is the best answer. Let them find out instead of giving them a hind for them to draw a conclusion.
Seriously, I don't really know exactly what "vaporlock" mean but my guest is that the engine suck in salty "vapor". If that is what it means, then most of the car on the road will have that problem in bay area or area where there are salty vapor.
If it is "hydrolock" then it is a different story. The intake of the van is at least 2-3 ft off the ground, and the grill angle design is kind of block water splash directly at the front. I still think it's impossible. There could be something else wrong with the van + your description of the incident that make the dealer come up with that conclusion. How about giving Toyota corp a call?

ACS Rob · 02-06-2012, 12:53 AM

i'd definitely fight them on this if what you said is accurate. going 10mph over 6inches of water shouldn't kill your motor. I find that hard to believe. i would try my luck at another dealership.

akphs · 02-06-2012, 08:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MatrixPC

Seriously, I don't really know exactly what "vaporlock" mean but my guest is that the engine suck in salty "vapor". If that is what it means, then most of the car on the road will have that problem in bay area or area where there are salty vapor.
If it is "hydrolock" then it is a different story. The intake of the van is at least 2-3 ft off the ground, and the grill angle design is kind of block water splash directly at the front. I still think it's impossible. There could be something else wrong with the van + your description of the incident that make the dealer come up with that conclusion. How about giving Toyota corp a call?

Yeah, worth a shot. I assumed they meant "hydrolock"--that either the OP or the mechanic misspoke/wrote. Vaporlock is different.

Jeff194 · 02-06-2012, 08:17 PM

Good luck, I am going to keep this in mind while driving through standing water from now on.

ChristinaInCA · 02-08-2012, 03:20 PM

Well, my car insurance company has verified the condition - guess what I am still perplexed about is how the engine sucked in water anyway on an ordinary road. The 'bus splash' theory doesn't make sense.
I will get my car back this week. The sales department says my 2011 is no longer 'certifiable' and will gladly sell me a new 2012 XLE for the difference b/t the trade-in value and new price - a difference in 11.5k. Uggghhhh....

akphs · 02-08-2012, 03:25 PM

What do they mean "no longer certifiable"? Did they replace the engine? Are they not confident in their own work?

No, seriously...what does it mean? That if you did trade it in, they couldn't resell it as a Certified Used Vehicle, so the trade-in value is lower?

spicyTuna · 02-08-2012, 04:24 PM

I'll take a guess here that the dealer can't sell as certified used so the van's resale value is lower hence the $11.5k difference.

Ya very hard to believe that only a few inches of water killed it. Probably just dumb luck.

Sent from my Autoguide iPhone app

ACS Rob · 02-08-2012, 04:36 PM

take it to another dealer... the dealer you're dealing with seems flaky.

bepperb · 02-10-2012, 04:23 PM

The engine was hydro locked, not vapor locked. This is what happens when water is pulled into the air intake of an engine, and it doesn't take much to do this so it easily could have been a splash or the wake from the car before you (math below). Should Toyota have designed a minivan that could go through 8 inches of water? I don't know. But they didn't, and now you are where you are. Same thing happened to co-workers Caravan, and to be honest at the time I thought he was nuts to try to drive through a puddle that deep and think everything would be fine.

Take it to another dealer? Maybe, if you think they would charge less to replace your engine, but I doubt they will. Hire a lawyer? For what? Your insurance company has them by the conference room load and trust me if they thought they could get away without paying they would be suing whomever they could. If they try to not pay, then you call a lawyer. But suing Toyota is going to go nowhere fast, unless you think you can convince them they hydro lock came from somewhere else.

Best of luck with this, I'm sure it's frustrating. Next time buy a Hummer. "guess what I am still perplexed about is how the engine sucked in water anyway on an ordinary road." Are you kidding? Driving through 8 inches of water is not ordinary. Most cars can not do that. Don't do that.

The math:

3.5 liter engine at 10:1 compression ratio compresses the air down to .35liters, or about 4 ounces. So intaking 4 ounces at once will definitely cause problems. But really, there are 6 cylinders and you only need one to intake more than about 1 ounce of water to do this. But the exact numbers really aren't important. What's important is that we're talking ounces, not gallons. If the end of that intake goes underwater for a second it's game over. And it's an all or nothing deal once the piston rods are deformed.