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A/C Freon recharge

196K views 28 replies 10 participants last post by  sleekaman 
#1 ·
2002 Camry XLE (4 cyl)

Can I buy one of those DIY R-134 freon cans that Walmart sells with a pressure gauge to check / top off freon level?

is that stuff compatible with the Camry's freon?
 
G
#2 ·
check the sticker under your hood. if it shows R134A refrigerant than yes you can buy a recharge kit. Know this, no air conditioner ever looses its refrigerant when it's functioning correctly unless there is something wrong like a failed o-ring or punctured condenser. I would suggest if you're having A/C issues to take your car and have it tested by a professional shop.
 
#3 · (Edited)
a) R134a is not commonly referred to as Freon. Freon in automotive applications is R12.

b) R134a is a compounded product with a mixture of chemicals in specific ratios. Some of the molecules are larger than others in this compound. Hence, if there is any sort of leak, the smaller molecules escape at a higher rate. The remaining gas/liquid has a different ratio and does not exchange heat at the same rate as R134a would in a properly formulated state.

c) Can the cheap kit work? Well, yes, to a point. See b). If you have a leak, no matter how much refrigerant you add back in, it won't work properly until the system has been evacuated, the leak repaired, and recharged.

d) Pressures in an R134a system are critical to proper function and depend upon a number of factors including the ambient air temperature. This is why you don't mess with it without proper training and knowledge.

e) Without having the proper gauges to check high and low side pressures, you are just assuming that the system needs to be charged because it isn't working well. You may be correct. The reason may be found elsewhere as well.

I do my own air conditioners because I am trained, own the equipment, am licensed and certified to handle refrigerants. I warn you to be careful.
 
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#4 ·
yes just use the R-134 from the store. I am certified A/c handler and believe me there is no magical toyota r-134 to be had.
I'd give it one try at recharging and see what happens. The good kind of kit comes with pressure gauges and instructions to prevent you from overfilling. If you overfill it with refrigerant it will not work. Some of these kits come with refrigerant that includes a leak stopper chemical and i think i would give that a try since there's nothing to lose. Like the other fellow said though if this fix doesnt work its time to take it to the shop.

The only maintenance your A/C normally needs is to run it every week or two. No matter the weather, run it. Toyota says 30 seconds is long enough, i think a couple minutes is better. The reason you need to run the air is because there is oil added to the refrigerant that lubes the bearings and seals inside, starve them of oil too long and the compressor may seize up and snap your belt. This happened on my dad's old 1982 Dodge Mirada because he did not run it unless the weather was hot.
 
#21 ·
I am certified A/c handler and believe me there is no magical toyota r-134 to be had.

Some of these kits come with refrigerant that includes a leak stopper chemical and i think i would give that a try since there's nothing to lose.


Certified A/C handler???

Nothing to lose???

You gotta be kiddin' me.
 
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#8 ·
There are talks about regulating the small cans all over the place here. Calif tried to require all AC work to be done by shops, but that legislation was dropped. But I think it's just a matter of time.

However, half a small Walmart bottle worked great. I thought a "completely sealed" AC system still is allowed to leak 1/2 oz a year??


On the topic of that DIY kit, I've seen those things before. And they sell that to anyone there? For any work that involves refrigerants over here, you can only have it done by someone that is licensed. None of this DIY stuff.
 
#6 · (Edited)
#7 ·
Honestly, if you can't figure out which one is high pressure and which one is low pressure, you really have no business messing with it. Start by attaching your gauge set to the valves and read the dials.
 
#9 ·
No leakage is acceptable. A typical automotive system will last well past 6 years before a leak appears. I'm not fond of the state government regulating who can service an air conditioner, but R12 was quite nasty to the environment, and reports are that R134a is nearly as bad. Nobody should be venting these gases to the atmosphere, and nobody should be playing with these materials if they haven't had some training. When someone asks where the valve is to add refrigerant, I worry that perhaps he hasn't received his certificate yet.
 
#11 ·
Did a quick search. Actually, the annual leakage rate, according to this EPA study, is 10.7% That's worse than I originally thought. :eek:

The rubber hose is one primary villain here. It's a good read.

Mobile (automotive)

Average annual leakage
10.5% (A.D. Little)
9.2% (Baker)
6.9% (Schwartz)
18.5% (Petitjean)
8.6% (Petitjean)

Average = 10.7%

Full article:
http://www.epa.gov/cppd/Presentations/Repice Bus AC.pdf
 
#10 ·
The R134 kit with reusable guage (the brand was quest if I recall) worked great. About $29 with two 14oz cans at advance auto parts. My buddy 2000 corrola was were we used it (took about 3/4 can). The gauge indicated somewhat low (but not empty) before charging and cooling is back up now.

Can't go wrong, the fitting fits only on the low side. The low side has a cap on it which says "L". If one can't figure that out, they should not be opening the hood at all :).
 
#12 ·
I've always wondered about those 'recharge kits' - the gen 3.5's AC takes a bit longer to get cold in the past year. However - everything is original and after the air gets cold, it stays cold. Is it wise to perhaps get the rubber hoses replaced (after all, it's been 14 years) and get the system evacuated and recharged? I'm not sure how you maintain an air conditioning system so pardon the n00b questions.
 
#13 ·
It's going to be hard to tell low refrigerant from other faults. So even adding 6oz from a WalMart kit can be dicey if the system is full. Toyota had a expansion valve total recall around 95, so even today that part may just decide to crap out on you after a few years (leak, stick shut, etc).

In addition to getting cold, the performance needs to be measured as far as how fast it gets cold. At least some cars will flash climate control light if the vent output doesn't cool a certain degree within 1 minute. Couldn't remember if this was in a Caddy or Chrysler.

If you're sure of slow leaks then your state should allow these consumer cans - at least you are not in Wisconsin. I'd just add 1/2 bottle (6 oz). If it doesn't improve then take it into a shop for service at ~$100 a pop. There is only so much an owner can safely do. Just don't keep adding or you might need to replace the whole system. :D A bursted rubber hose can cost you your eyesight in less than a second.
 
#14 ·
Thanks for the information. A local tire/brakes/AC place charges $79.95 for an AC leak test and it includes up to 16oz of R134a. Maybe I'll take it down.

I am still very impressed with the durability of Toyota's AC system. My aunt has a '94 Accord and she is getting ready to repair her AC for the third time. The first two times it was major parts like the compressor/condensor/evaporator but this time I think it's just leaky hoses.
 
#18 ·
Compressor's lubrication comes from the circulating refrigerant that carries oil. That's why the manual says to periodically use the AC system, even in winters.

When the charge is low, the compressor doesn't get lubrication and craps out on you. If debris gets circulated after that it's a mess.
 
#15 ·
A good a/c guy can pop the gauges on and know in a couple minutes if the pressures are in the ballpark. If it is just a tad low and you haven't added refrigerant in eons, then adding a few ounces will probably do the job and spending $80 is overkill. If it is way low, then yes, check for leaks.

I would not replace the hoses on a 14 year old system unless you have to. It's just too expensive. You need to replace the hoses, the drier, and then evacuate to a couple atmospheres for an hour or longer before recharging. Time and money. Check the price of the drier and then rethink this.
 
#16 ·
A good a/c guy can pop the gauges on and know in a couple minutes if the pressures are in the ballpark. If it is just a tad low and you haven't added refrigerant in eons, then adding a few ounces will probably do the job and spending $80 is overkill. If it is way low, then yes, check for leaks.

I would not replace the hoses on a 14 year old system unless you have to. It's just too expensive. You need to replace the hoses, the drier, and then evacuate to a couple atmospheres for an hour or longer before recharging. Time and money. Check the price of the drier and then rethink this.
Alrighty.. How good are the gauges on those DIY cans? I'll ask my cousin if he has the tools available or knows who does. I have to borrow his OBD-II scanner too.
 
#17 ·
I've never seen a can that had a gauge built into it. I've seen cheap kits that have a gauge to attach to it and they are generally calibrated to a green zone or a red zone. If you can tell me what pressures those are, based purely on red or green, you're better than most. That's half the issue. You need to know the high pressure as well as the low pressure. And this all relates to the ambient temperature. This isn't rocket science, but it isn't buy-a-can-at-walmart either. Remember what Clint Eastwood had to say about these things--Well Punk, are you feeling lucky?

Here's a test question for only the guys who think the kit is a great deal: A car's air conditioner is operating. The compressor is engaged. The high pressure measures 235 psi and the low pressure side is measuring -3 psi. What is wrong with the system and how do you fix it? Show how you can troubleshoot and resolve this problem using a single go-no go gauge.
 
#20 ·
Ummm, spend $80 at a local tire/brakes/AC place? :lol:

Actually, I wouldn't mind adding a few oz, but how do you make sure it's not overcharging? Starting by making sure the sight glass has bubbles :confused:



Here's a test question for only the guys who think the kit is a great deal: A car's air conditioner is operating. The compressor is engaged. The high pressure measures 235 psi and the low pressure side is measuring -3 psi. What is wrong with the system and how do you fix it?
 
#22 · (Edited)
Im not certified in AC. Yet I fixed the AC in my 92 Camry with a little help from folks on here.
It was pretty easy. I dont think a certification is needed. A book and maybe 30-40 of reading on the topic is all that is needed for 95% of what folks come across. Common sense too.

Compared to rebuilding an engine or a transmission, its childs play.
 
#23 ·
How will we ever learn if we don't start somewhere?

When you say that we have no business trying to repair our cars (because we don't know where the low-pressure port is located), you really aren't helping matters. Just be a blow hard somewhere else. If I don't begin the process of trying to get a handle on some of these repairs then I'll never learn. So if there's anyone out there who can give some advice to a divorced single mom, I would greatly appreciate it. I don't have the money (he said it would be around $600) to pay my mechanic tear out my dash to locate the leak in my AC and repair it. We already know it's a leak because he recharged it and it didn't hold the charge. He used the black light to determine it was behind the dash. So, I started reading about possible solutions to this. The air blows fine, but it's not cold at all. So I bought one of those "Air Conditioner Leak Repair" kits at Walmart for $20. It comes with a hose that apparently screws onto the low pressure valve -- and you guessed it, I have no idea where the valve it. And the Sienna I own (it's a 2000 XLE) came with an owner's manual, but as you probably know, there's no real description of anything in the manual. It shows where to check the oil, add oil, coolant, etc. But no other descriptions or drawings. So I thought I would ask you guys, the experts. I would like to have the repair manual, but i don't have the money for that right now, either. I believe it's 100 bucks or more. So, I figure out how to do it myself (carefully), or we go without air. And, of course, the leak repair might not work, but at least I'll know I tried. So if anyone has any suggestions for where I can find a drawing that explains the location of specific parts under my hood, I would be grateful. Thanks, TwineGirl
 
#26 ·
Well, I think some were just being cautious in that escaping refrigerant can flash freeze your flesh or freeze off your eye balls in a fraction of a second. It's no joking matter. Get yourself goggles, long sleeves and thick gloves, even if DIY videos don't show them. Safety first.

I'd recommend that you go through the How-To Guide on Interdynamic's web site:

http://www.id-usa.com/how_to.asp

Look at (at least):
1. AC System Basics
2. Recharging Methods
3. Relevant "How-to" Videos

if not all sections, before you attempt anything.


When you say that we have no business trying to repair our cars (because we don't know where the low-pressure port is located), you really aren't helping matters. Just be a blow hard somewhere else. If I don't begin the process of trying to get a handle on some of these repairs then I'll never learn. So if there's anyone out there who can give some advice to a divorced single mom, I would greatly appreciate it. I don't have the money (he said it would be around $600) to pay my mechanic tear out my dash to locate the leak in my AC and repair it. We already know it's a leak because he recharged it and it didn't hold the charge. He used the black light to determine it was behind the dash. So, I started reading about possible solutions to this. The air blows fine, but it's not cold at all. So I bought one of those "Air Conditioner Leak Repair" kits at Walmart for $20. It comes with a hose that apparently screws onto the low pressure valve -- and you guessed it, I have no idea where the valve it. And the Sienna I own (it's a 2000 XLE) came with an owner's manual, but as you probably know, there's no real description of anything in the manual. It shows where to check the oil, add oil, coolant, etc. But no other descriptions or drawings. So I thought I would ask you guys, the experts. I would like to have the repair manual, but i don't have the money for that right now, either. I believe it's 100 bucks or more. So, I figure out how to do it myself (carefully), or we go without air. And, of course, the leak repair might not work, but at least I'll know I tried. So if anyone has any suggestions for where I can find a drawing that explains the location of specific parts under my hood, I would be grateful. Thanks, TwineGirl
 
#24 ·
We aren't blow hards. We are trying to save your life. This is an area of your car which has the potential to kill you if mishandled. Take the ac sealer back to Walmart and get your money back. If there is a leak in the evaporator area it will do no good. Those sealers rarely do anything at all but are aimed at the hoses. No ac hoses under the dash. To replace the evaporator the full dash will likely need to be be removed to get to it, and given the cost of parts, the price is on the low side and it sounds like the guy is cutting you a deal.
 
#25 ·
Well, he might be cutting me a deal, but if I don't have $600 it doesn't really matter, does it? He said the leak was coming from behind the dash and the only way to repair it was to remove the dash. He didn't say WHAT was leaking because I guess there's no way to know until the dash is removed. That's what he told me. He said a big part of the cost was the removal of the dash (labor). So I was under the impression that the $600 he was quoting was more for labor than the replacement of expensive parts. And, he also said that $600 was a very rough estimate, and that he wouldn't know until he had the dash removed. I am a believer in letting people do the work they're trained to do, but I don't think that I should be made to feel that I am incapable of doing this sealant myself. If it's so dangerous, why can any shmoe buy this stuff at walmart? I do believe you when you say it's dangerous, but what would make you think that I would be careless about doing it? I have taken a great deal of time to try to understand all of this. Why can't I give it a try? Please don't insult my intelligence! I want to learn! Thanks, TwineGirl
 
#27 ·
$600 implies that your evaporator has problems. Are you sure of it? Well, is he sure of it? I don't know what year you have but Toyota had a massive recall of expansion valves in the early 90s. They leaked because of galvanic corrosion of improper materials used. I believe these are fast and easy. If this was even a problem in the first palce.

If evidence points to low refrigerant level, then I'd be willing to try a Walmart can. Or 1/2 a can at a time. A typical automotive system leaks an average of about 10.7% per year any way, according to the following EPA document, see slide #6, "Automotive". A bus is like up to 50%!!

http://www.epa.gov/cppd/Presentations/Repice Bus AC.pdf


Well, he might be cutting me a deal, but if I don't have $600 it doesn't really matter, does it? He said the leak was coming from behind the dash and the only way to repair it was to remove the dash.
 
#28 ·
twinegirl,
I have no idea of your abilities or knowledge other than your idea that a can of sealant purchased at Walmart will fix the problem. This tells us a lot about your depth of knowledge. Anyway, sure go ahead and put the sealant in and see what happens. You seem determined to do that, so knock yourself out. It should cool until it leaks out again. Your alternative is to drive the rest of the summer without air conditioning. People lived without it for thousands of years so you can manage for a couple of months.

There are no hoses for the refrigerant under the dash. All aluminum tubing. The high pressure flow enters in one tube, meets the expansion valve and then flows into the evaporator where the suddenly lowered pressure makes it cold. Air flows over the coil. No hoses. The sealant crap is designed to treat older hoses that tend to allow the smaller molecules of refrigerant gas to migrate through the rubber tubing. If the problem was that sort of issue then the sealant might help for awhile. Anyway, we all feel your economic pain but squandering 20 bucks on a quick fix will likely get you air conditioning for a couple days until it leaks out again.
 
#29 · (Edited)
Suprised this has gone so long



Interesting that this thread has gone to where its going. No one here is insulting anyone's intelligence. When I posted my comments on using the Duracool product purchased here in Canada at Walmart for $99, it was a chance I wanted to take instead of going to the Garage or Dealer to assess my Air-con problems. My car is an 85 Celica, don't think spending thousands of dollars to repair the Air-con is economically possible for me. Remember that word 'chance'. Air-con had no cold air blowing, I did hear the compressor kicking in an out so often, so I believed it to leaked out the original R12 refrigerant.

Items to remember: (my opinion)

1) nothing here is an exact science if you don't know what you are doing, don't do it
2) usually do these type of repairs at your own risk
3) no one knows of everyones financial situation, so you decide how much you want to spend
4) most of the comments here at the forums is to help/direct/assist if what you want to do on your car. You decide.

enough ramping and raging, BTW, my Air-cond is till cold on the Celica, so I'm happy with my solution, it may not work for you, so you decide what works best.

thank-you
 
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