Toyota Nation Forum banner

Headers for 2gr-fe v6 owners

48K views 94 replies 16 participants last post by  bigcsorren 
#1 · (Edited)
So I finally pulled the trigger on a rather lengthy decision to buy headers for the Camry. I can honestly say that they look very good, but I've yet to install them due to several factors.

For starters, they are meant for the MR2 transplant which doesn't exactly need oxygen sensors. We do however, which means that oxygen sensor bungs must be welded in before anything else. To add to this, I noticed some excessive welding at the merger unions, and the runners were not flush with the flange that bolts up to the heads. Being a little OCD, I decided to bang out the runners flat and fusion weld them for a smoother transition, less turbulence, and overall better flow of the headers. After said work, the inside mergers are getting deburred "removal of excess material" of weld material for a smoother flow as well.

After all is said and done, the MKC y-pipe will need to be modified a little for correct bolt up to the headers. I'm taking this as a perfect opportunity to take it a step further though. Since I'm already chopping up a perfectly good MKC y-pipe, why not increase size from the merger to 3 inches? Naturally I ordered up all the stainless material, flex unit, and flanges to have it modified for the header bolt up and the increase size to 3 inches from the merger to end flange of the y-pipe. I've figured with the increased flow of the headers, the y-pipe should also be increased to accommodate.

Everything from here on is being custom welded with 3" stainless piping but not before a Vibrant 3" Ultra quiet resonator at the factory location and on to a custom 3" to dual 2 1/4" rear merger unit which is also welded to mandrel bent pipe into dual Magnaflows.

This is the latest and greatest. I hadn't updated in a while, but this is in the works. I will post pictures as the project moves along. Cheers!
 
See less See more
#2 ·
I'm gonna follow this thread and I would really really like to see what you are able to do for fitting the FMW/Gouky headers to this MKC Performance y-pipe. My concerns are ride height and interference with the oil pan.

If you have the ability to take side-by-side measurements of the stock headers and Gouky headers showing the difference in height and collector offset, this would be really helpful.

In passing, as an MR2 owner, I should mention that yes, MR2's do need O2 sensors, the 2GR engine when swapped into an MR2 does need O2 sensors, Gouky intends for the bungs to be mounted in the y-pipe, as his headers are intended for use with a custom y-pipe fitted with O2 bungs. Alternatively, you could put bungs right into the merge collectors on the headers. As far as I know, the only modern cars that do not require O2 sensors are electric cars.
 
#3 ·
That is entirely correct, there are no bungs on the headers themselves since they are meant for the y pipe on the MR2 setup. I am welding mine on the merger of the header itself for the Camry. I'll be as detailed as possible with pictures when I do the install to better help the cause.
 
#4 ·
In for pics and results. I have been wanting to do this for a while. Just mainly discouraged by the lack of tuning options. The headers will elimate the primary cats so do you have any plans for the inevitable CEL that will result?
 
#5 ·
Hi everyone, frank pointed me towards this thread to clarify things.

Yes, the MR2 needs Oxygen sensors also. they are mounted in the y-pipe to help flow and to allow the ability for the sensors to be mounted "up-hill". a sensor where the part inside the exhaust is higher than the part outside the exhaust will collect moisture and reduce the sensor's lifespan significantly.

The price on that MKC pipe is really nice, unfortunately it cannot be used with my headers because i designed them from a blank slate to be well suited to the MR2. The outlets are at completely different locations to accommodate the manual transmission we use. by starting with a blank slate it really brought out a fair bit more horsepower. You can see dyno charts all over the MR2 forums in the 280-290rwhp range and the E153 takes about 16% losses so that works out to 325-335hp at the flywheel. Toyota really did a fantastic job with the ECU and it's adaptability to changes like this.

There is a y-pipe that does exist for the headers i make but the price is rather high at $1395 (this is not sold by me). I do wish there was a cheaper option but that is unfortunately where things sit right now. You can see the construction is a bit tighter to fit right in the oil pan gap only:


It's also 2.25" to a 2.5" merge and a 3" expansion at the end which looks to be bigger than what MKC uses.

The thing to keep in mind is that this engine gets *LOUD* when you uncork it. it sounds fantastic on a race car, but it would get a bit annoying on a camry or avalon. You can hear it in the first minute of this video on the dyno and then on the race track after the first minute: This is with those headers a resonator and a muffler. a chambered muffler would bring the sound down a bit but once you uncork the headers and y-pipe it's hard to quiet them back down at high load/RPM. but it does not take much to make them dead quiet at low loads below about 3000RPM.

If someone wants to bring interest together to make a y-pipe for you guys i'd be happy to work with them to get it designed up. I have no interest in running a group buy though so someone else would have to do it.

I'm subscribed to this thread so any questions can feel free to be asked here, PM or via e-mail: Marc@frankensteinmotorworks.com

Thanks!
 
#7 · (Edited)
Love where this thread is going!! Will follow closely.

PS Not to thread jack (sorry) but Gouky is developing a supercharger kit for the 2gR-fe swapped MR2s!! I have been trolling his update threads over at the MR2 forums to beg him to consider a a kit for our camrys! Help me convince him guys :)
 
  • Like
Reactions: randybill
#9 ·
Hey, Gouki... Would you consider direct fit headers for the Camry/Avalon if we get enough interested?

Area47, since you're a mod, is it possible to just have a 2gr-fe performance section in the forum? Since the same engine/setup has been used in so many toyotas for over a decade and the parts are so interchangeable.
 
#11 ·
Hey, Gouki... Would you consider direct fit headers for the Camry/Avalon if we get enough interested?

Yes and no, unfortunately there would have to be about 25 people interested and it would all have to be 100% paid ahead with no possibility for a refund. I generally don't do group buys because they are an unmitigated disaster. There's never enough people that join and then everyone's sister/mother/grandmother starts to suddenly battle cancer about 3 weeks into the project and they request a refund. I'm pretty convinced at this point that group buys are the leading cause of cancer for the women in a car enthusiast's family.

If someone else wants to run the group buy and be responsible for those deaths on their hands I'd be happy to design and manufacture the product.


In case anyone is interested, there is a OEM Toyota supercharger option for the 2GR-FE. It is sold in Australia, for a vehicle named the Aurion. If you can find a co-operative dealer in Oz, you can have the kit shipped to you in the US. I was told the cost including shipping is $8,000-$9,000 USD. I have no idea whether how this would work with an automatic transmission car, or any details of the engine management and compatibility with US cars.

My own interest lies in the 2GR-FE swapped MR2, and I am looking for options for an affordable Y-pipe like the one from MKC. The MKC is a fantastic value. Anyone who can use it as a direct fit should be jumping on it. Unfortunately, as Gouky pointed out, it is not a direct fit for the MR2 with manual trans (E153) and FMW headers.

Maybe there could be enough interest for MKC to develop a version of their y-pipe compatible with Gouky's headers for both Camry and MR2?
The additional complication with what you're asking is a y-pipe for an MKIII MR2 using Fue's kit. and I completely disagree with fue's engine mounting position. without exaggeration, fue's kit mounts the motor with less ground clearance than you're allowed to run with in all Motorsports except F1 and at that it's only about 1/4" higher than F1 runs.
 
#10 ·
In case anyone is interested, there is a OEM Toyota supercharger option for the 2GR-FE. It is sold in Australia, for a vehicle named the Aurion. If you can find a co-operative dealer in Oz, you can have the kit shipped to you in the US. I was told the cost including shipping is $8,000-$9,000 USD. I have no idea whether how this would work with an automatic transmission car, or any details of the engine management and compatibility with US cars.

My own interest lies in the 2GR-FE swapped MR2, and I am looking for options for an affordable Y-pipe like the one from MKC. The MKC is a fantastic value. Anyone who can use it as a direct fit should be jumping on it. Unfortunately, as Gouky pointed out, it is not a direct fit for the MR2 with manual trans (E153) and FMW headers.

Maybe there could be enough interest for MKC to develop a version of their y-pipe compatible with Gouky's headers for both Camry and MR2?
 
#13 · (Edited)
Greetings,

So bottom line, restricting the consideration to the exhaust system, how much faster could we make a 7th-gen Camry with the V-6 in the 0-60? About 5%? (5% isn't trivial, considering the limitations of FWD tire traction, and the fact that we'd have to add 5% average torque to the engine's output between WOT shift points.)

Thanks,
Mark
 
#15 · (Edited)
Thank you, Gouky. I confess total ingorance about MR2's. Do you have any sense of the gain over a stock Camry? If I take the average of the range you cited and assume that's measured at the front wheels, then a 22% increase in power ought to reduce 0-60 time in the 3-5% range rather easily, even with a significant traction handicap I should think.

But:
1. How would the car's fuel/timing ECU handle this?
2. Could the stock injectors and fuel pump handle this?
3. Could the stock automatic transmission handle this without some re-programming, assuming this is even possible?

Best,
Mark
 
#16 ·
1. How would the car's fuel/timing ECU handle this?
Yes, we run the MR2s with the stock ECU, the exact same one you guys use.

2. Could the stock injectors and fuel pump handle this?
yes on the stock injectors, not sure on the stock pump but probably.

3. Could the stock automatic transmission handle this without some re-programming, assuming this is even possible?
i have no idea on this, I'm really not a fan of automatics. but 25% more power is likely within the engineering margins.


as for the difference, it should take your quarter from mid 14's to high 13's and your 0-60 from really high 5's to mid 5's. probably about 8% quicker 0-60

but until someone tries it, it's all just internet banter.
 
#17 · (Edited)
Thanks again, Gouky. Your claims don't seem to be unreasonable. You can see that I'm approaching the problem from the vehicle side back to the engine, whereas you're approaching it (quite reasonably) from the opposite direction. If anything makes me nervous, however, it's the transmission. Increased engine output has to reduce service life, whether it comes from the hard parts or the soft parts aspect. Nowadays safety margins are designed with such precision that any change of input parameters may have a significant effect.

Does anyone know how the restrictiveness of the stock Camry exhaust system compares to that of a stock MR2? Thanks.

Best,
Mark
 
#18 ·
I'm not sure why you'd compare the stock MR2. the stock MR2 exhaust can't flow what the 2GR needs for full power. the 2GR needs at least a 2.5" system in the MR2 and there's a touch more power for a 2.75" setup and most people go for a full 3" system. since the camry's exhaust is longer i'd aim for a full 3" for max power.

But do keep in mind the 2GR really likes to scream when you uncork it. Nothing about the uncorked exhaust note from a 2GR says "family sedan".
 
#22 · (Edited)
Hi Folks,

As far as I can tell there are two data points here. First is the claim that in MR2's (starting with some kind of aftermarket exhaust system of unknown restriction,) the gain with "good headers, exhaust, and intake," is 50-70hp.

Second is the claim of measuring 280-290 hp at the drive wheels of these same MR2's.

If we can believe all dyno's are created equal (they aren't, of course,) then I think the least uncertain mapping for a Camry with claimed 268hp at the drive wheels from Toyota, is that a Camry would pick about about 17 hp (+6%) to reach the same 285 hp (ave.) as the mod's MR2's at the drive wheels.

If I got that wrong, please feel free to jump in and correct me.

Thanks,
Mark
 
#23 ·
The Avalon/Camry v6 is advertised by toyota for 268hp at the crank, not the wheels. Generally, the stock 2gr-fe dyno between 210 and 220hp. I dyne'd at 238whp with just an intake, mufflers and 3rd cat delete. Area74 hit 250whp+ with a the MKC y-pipe and I believe it was 2quick4u that was in the 260s with a little more modified exhaust(please correct me if I'm wrong).

So the Mr2's are actually seeing 60-70whp gains with an intake and full exhaust. As crazy as that sounds, it seams to be inline with the gains that the 2gr-fe owners have been getting. I just got the MKC y-pipe. I haven't dyne'd since, but the car feels like a brand new beast. Especially in the 4-6k rpm range.
 
#27 · (Edited)
Greetings,

This interesting detour caused me to research how car companies since 2005 have been rating horsepower. I thought it was at the driven wheels, but it turns out the drivetrain after the motor (transmission/differential) is explicitly excluded from the rating. Most of you can skip right to the end for new content.

From Wikipedia under "horsepower:"

"SAE certified power[edit]

In 2005, the SAE introduced 'SAE Certified Power' with SAE J2723.
[27] This test is voluntary and is in itself not a separate engine test code but a certification of either J1349 or J1995 after which the manufacturer is allowed to advertise 'Certified to SAE J1349' or 'Certified to SAE J1995' depending on which test standard have been followed. To attain certification the test must follow the SAE standard in question, take place in an ISO9000/9002 certified facility and be witnessed by an SAE approved third party.

A few manufacturers such as Honda and Toyota switched to the new ratings immediately, with multi-directional results; the rated output of
Cadillac'ssuperchargedNorthstar V8 jumped from 440 to 469 hp (328 to 350 kW) under the new tests, while the rating for Toyota'sCamry 3.0 L 1MZ-FE V6 fell from 210 to 190 hp (160 to 140 kW). The company's Lexus ES 330 and Camry SE V6 were previously rated at 225 hp (168 kW) but the ES 330 dropped to 218 hp (163 kW) while the Camry declined to 210 hp (160 kW). The first engine certified under the new program was the 7.0 L LS7 used in the 2006 Chevrolet Corvette Z06. Certified power rose slightly from 500 to 505 hp (373 to 377 kW).

While Toyota and Honda are retesting their entire vehicle lineups, other automakers generally are retesting only those with updated powertrains. For example, the 2006 Ford Five Hundred is rated at 203 horsepower, the same as that of 2005 model. However, the 2006 rating does not reflect the new SAE testing procedure, as Ford is not going to incur the extra expense of retesting its existing engines. Over time, most automakers are expected to comply with the new guidelines.

SAE tightened its horsepower rules to eliminate the opportunity for engine manufacturers to manipulate factors affecting performance such as how much oil was in the crankcase, engine control system calibration, and whether an engine was tested with premium fuel. In some cases, such can add up to a change in horsepower ratings. A road test editor at Edmunds.com, John Di Pietro, said decreases in horsepower ratings for some 2006 models are not that dramatic. For vehicles like a midsize family sedan, it is likely that the reputation of the manufacturer will be more important.
[28]"

And here is a link to the actual text for J1349/J1995 straight from the SAE's web site. In table 7, item 11, you can see that transmission losses are explicilty exempted:

http://www.mie.uth.gr/ekp_yliko/SAE_%CE%94%CE%A5%CE%9D%CE%91%CE%9C%CE%9F%CE%9C%CE%95%CE%A4%CE%A1%CE%97%CE%A3%CE%97_%CE%9C%CE%95%CE%9A.pdf


So, going back to the consensus that the stock V-6 7th-gen Camry is good for about 220 hp at the rear wheels, this returns the claim of 285-ish driven-wheel hp for the "uncorked" MR2 back into the 65-ish hp gain realm. However, I would want that to be quiet. If we were to modify the question to, "how powerful can we get without increasing low-mid throttle opening noise by more than 3dBC", the answer would be? The quietest, highest-flowing mufflers I'm aware of are Walker Ultraflows, but I know these from the world of RWD V-8's, and have no idea of applicability/adaptability to Camry's.

Best,
Mark




 
#30 ·
The 2gr-fe is toyotas 3.5 liter v6 engine used in these models...

Applications (calendar years):

2004–2012 Toyota Avalon (GSX30)
2012–present Toyota Avalon (GSX40)
2006–2012 Toyota Aurion (GSV40)
2005–2012 Toyota RAV4/Vanguard (GSA33/38)
2006–present Toyota Estima/Previa/Tarago (GSR50/55)
2006–2011 Toyota Camry (GSV40)
2011–present Toyota Camry (GSV50)
2006–2012 Lexus ES 350 (GSV40)
2012-present Lexus ES 350 (GSV50)
2007–2009 Lexus RX 350/Toyota Harrier (GSU30/31/35/36)
2009–present Lexus RX 350 (GGL10/15/16)
2007–2014 Toyota Highlander/Kluger (GSU40/45)
2007-2012 Toyota Blade (GRE156)
2007-2013 Toyota Mark X Zio (GGA10)
2008–present Toyota Alphard/Vellfire (GGH20/25)
2008–present Toyota Venza (GGV10/15)
2009–present Lotus Evora (280ps & 350Nm using Lotus engine management, Sport Pack package redline increased to 7000rpm)
2006–present Toyota Sienna (GSL20/23/25/30/33/35)
Toyota Corolla (E140/E150) (for Super GT use)
Lotus Evora GTE (modified 4 litre version with 470 hp N/A for race use in the ALMS and at the 24 Hours of Le Mans)
Supercharged (calendar years):

2007-2009 TRD Aurion (TRD supercharger)
2011–present Lotus Evora S (345 hp, 295 lb-ft)
2012 Lotus Exige S (345 hp, 295 lb-ft)
 
  • Like
Reactions: leejack
#32 · (Edited)
Area 47 - there does seem to exist a reasonable set of dyno data to suggest quantifiable gains, or at least trends. But there seems to be a dearth of data about how much louder the car gets as the exhaust system is increasingly "uncorked."

Time to disclose my ulterior motive: the 7th-gen Camry's with the V-6 is claimed to be 5.8 sec 0-60. The equivalent V-6 Honda is claimed to be 5.6 sec. Although I have nothing against Hondas nor their owners by any means, I'd rather that margin be eliminated or even reversed. (Shades of the old "Chevy vs. Ford" rivalry, admittedly.)

Best,
Mark
 
#33 ·
You could manage to keep it relatively quiet with the right set of mufflers and a decent resonator. However if your goal is just to beat a V-6 accord the k&n intake and MKC y-pipe with an otherwise stock exhaust will get you there.
 
#34 ·
^^^Yeah, If you care about speed even a little, the mkc y-pipe an k&n intake are a must, as 2quik4u said. Both are more than wort the money and will give you gains that you'd feel.
 
#36 · (Edited)
Thanks Area 47 and Moondoggy - very helpful input. I'll research that. In the meantime, however, I hope I haven't totally derailed the thread, and would very much like to follow the progress with the headers as it (hopefully) continues to unfold here.

On edit: I might have reached a conclusion too quickly. In this concurrent thread: http://www.toyotanation.com/forum/310-7th-generation-2012/1300545-does-muffler-make-difference.html

Moondoggy made the following statement:

"Well, I recently installed the MKC y-pipe and replaced the rest of the exhaust with 2.5 inch all the way back. The car is definitely faster at wide open throttle, but the torque curve shifted dramatically. I have noticeably less torque in the 1000-3500 rpm range.

I was just fooling around with a stopwatch. With a 2000 rpm launch, I hit 0-60 mph in just under 7 secs, which is slower than stock... However, my 0-95 mph improved to just under 14 secs. There's a back road I like to test this and have a set starting point. I'm not sure the distance, but I hit 95 mph a bit farther back than I hit even 90 mph before the exhaust work. Last time I went to the track a few years ago, I finished the 1/4 mile at 15.1 secs @91 mph."

Since 0-60 sprints are common for most folks, but 1/4-mile blasts happen almost never, this sounds like a step backward rather than forward. From experience, reducing torque in the 1.0-3.5 krpm range is almost always bad news for street driving. Area 47: Moondoggy's observation seems to be the exact opposite of your claim. Explanation? One thought: with less exhaust restriction, factory cam may have too much exhaust duration?

Best,
Mark
 
#39 ·
Mapric, you missed one thing I said...
"When I first installed the y-pipe, if i floored it from a dead stop it would feel like the front wheels were trying to escape from the rest of the car."

My loss of low end torque was caused by replacing the rest of the stock exhaust pipe with 2.5 inch pipe, not the y-pipe. Like Area47 said, just the y-pipe will improve your performance across the entire rpm range.
 
#37 ·
the dyno graph in comparison showed a 21ft lbs gain below 4k rpms.

What he is feeling is the sudden rush above 4500 that happens when the vvt phase changes.

There is too many variables at play to do the stop watch test. This is where the before and after dyno comes into play at.
 
#40 · (Edited)
Thanks Moondoggy,

Again, trying to keep this side discussion to a minimum but also trying to get better certainty from the information shared so far.

Re-reading your thread, Moondoggy, left me with a very unclear impression of what the Y-pipe did and what the larger pipe in the rear half of the exhaust system did. As Area47 said, dyno results would settle this provided a simple before/after Y-pipe-only change graph could be obtained. To me, it seems very unlikely that increasing pipe diameter in the rear half of the exhaust system, would change output from a sizeable increase in low-mid torque from the Y-pipe change alone, to a sizeable decrease.

Btw, Area47, I'm wondering whether the effect of the Y-pipe change is solely a matter of reducing restriction. It may also be an effect of adding volume, and thus changing wave boundary conditions, at a fortuitous path length from the exhaust ports, very much like the effect that adjusting collector length in open headers can have on an engine's torque curve.

Best,
Mark
 
#41 ·
I can attest that there is no loss in torque from the y-pipe. The main gain in power is due to the removal of the horribly restrictive merge in the stock y-pipe. With the rest of the gain coming from the larger primaries and removal of the 3rd cat as well.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top