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Engine rattle on startup

71K views 52 replies 23 participants last post by  mrand0926 
#1 ·
I finally caught my engine rattle on audio. Give a listen and tell me what you think this is: http://www.supload.com/sound_confirm.php?get=296253414.wav

There's a TSB about a rattle on a cold start, but mine never rattles when it's cold. This always happens on a warm restart -- usually about 45 to 75 minutes after I've parked it.

It's been doing this for at least a year, but I've had trouble catching it in the act and, of course, the dealer can't reproduce it. I currently have 37k miles on it. Oil changes completed at 1k, 5k and every 5k after. Using Mobil 1 5W-20 since the second change.
 
#3 ·
Sorry, my computer audio isn't very good, my hearing is going, so I'm not sure I could hear much of the rattle noise (mostly a tick/knock at the end but that's not what your talking about, right?). Anyway, I think I've heard a lot worse rattle from mine at startup (less than 4k miles), so I try to make sure the windows are rolled up when starting . . . so it doesn't bother me.

Usually means the oil has drained off various internal moving parts, or the water pump is going. Not likely the water pump, so I'm thinking oil. If it doesn't get worse, I'd ignore it.
 
#4 ·
that sounds like my start up rattle. mine is a little louder though. im pretty sure mine is what the tsb is for.
 
#8 ·
I dunno. I had a Matrix rental with less miles than my Corolla has and it rattled nearly every warm start too. I'm wanting the dealer to hear it and identify it and determine whether it's a problem or not. I'm getting the impression that the TSB may be too limited because it specifies cold starts.

Haioth said:
good time for someone to explain the technical side of vvti?
And if a rattle like that is normal and acceptable. It just sounds like a noise I don't want to hear out of a new engine.
 
#9 · (Edited)
I hear it but I've never noticed any noise like that with mine. I've got 12k miles on my 09 "S". I thought that I remember hearing about a TSB for the water pump but I'm not sure. :facepalm:

I would take the audio down to the dealer & see what they think.
 
#11 ·
I had this same noise and took my 09 corolla in along with the TSB to the dealership. It ends up that it is the camshaft timing assembly that needs to be replaced. There were defective ones placed in the cars and the tsb is for the switch out. Get your cars in the shop and have it done. All fixed now and no more rattle. Couldn't be happier.
 
#12 ·
Took it to the dealership before with the TSB in hand. They "couldn't reproduce the problem" and told me the TSB didn't apply to my car. Not sure if it didn't apply because of a serial number discrepancy or because the TSB is for cold starts. Will try again next week when I have my next dealer appointment.
 
#13 ·
It shouldn't matter if they "couldn't reproduce the problem". You have a copy of the TSB stating what the issue is with the sound. If the vehicle is under warranty, take it back, along with the TSB, and try again. Tell them you are still having issues and you want the defective part replaced.
 
#14 · (Edited)
TSB's only apply if the problem is affecting the vehicle, having a TSB isn't a "do this work no matter what," it is meant to be a procedure to fix a problem with the car. If the dealership can't determine there is a problem, there is no work to be done.

The TSB is specifically for rattle noise on cold start, if there is no rattle noise on cold start, the TSB does not apply, and the dealership should diagnose the problem to see what is actually causing it. It may even be the same parts listed in the TSB (coincidentally), and if they are found to be faulty, they should be replaced under warranty. The TSB is for a specific concern, which the original poster stated right in his first post did not apply to his situation.

The dealership should still check the vehicle, if your dealer is not meeting your expectations, I would contact the service manager with your situation, find another dealership or contact Toyota USA to see if there is anything they can do to help.

Good luck.

Jeff
 
#16 · (Edited)
Actually, most TSB's are only valid for the warranty to which the part applies, for most TSB's that is 3 years/60,000km (36,000 mile), whichever comes first.

TSB's are procedures to fix a problem that is covered under warranty, they do not usually extend that warranty at all beyond what the original manufacturers warranty is.

The engine is covered by a 5-year/100,000km (60,000 mile) powertrain warranty, which these parts and this TSB falls into.

Jeff
 
#17 ·
When I took my 09 Corolla in to the dealer to get it fixed, I explained what issue I was having which was the cold startup noise. I went in with a copy of the TSB and told them they weren't going to hear the noise again as I've been driving the vehicle. That the sound won't reproduce unless the vehicle has been sitting for awhile (ie overnight or all day at work). They took it in, determined what it was according to the TSB, replaced the Camshaft Timing Assembly. Although, they replaced it with another defective assembly and the engine light came on this time. Had to drive with the light on while they waited on the new part to come in. They replaced it again a few days later when the part came in, no problems since.
 
#18 ·
Here's the the TSB
http://www.empirepao.com/tsb/T-SB-0087-09.pdf

On page 2 it is said to be covered till 5 years like Jeff has said.

The sad part is some of 9th gen engines develop that rattle after 5 yrs when engine is out of 5 yr warranty. My cousin's 2005 has developed this problem. This means that you may not have this rattle now but sooner or later you may encounter it. It's better if your vvti gives out within 5 years/50k miles.
 
#20 ·
The part could still be replaced under your ECP warranty yes, though they likely wouldn't put it through as a "TSB" repair, but rather just a regular warranty claim to replace a defective part.

Jeff
 
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#23 · (Edited)
The ECU issues correction factors when the coolant is below 68*F (20*C). Until the coolant moves above 68*F at the ECU temperature gauge, then it's still in cold start enrichment mode. After 122*F (50*C) or thereabouts, it enters closed loop and starts using the O2/AFR sensors for AFR corrections. At 180-200*F, the engine is at full operating temperature.

Think of 68*F as a 1.0 correction factor.

VVT-i doesn't operate when the engine is cold or when oil pressure is low and it has an internal bypass valve for such conditions.

You could try running a thicker oil. That's what I do with my 1GR's piston slap (when cold). :facepalm:
 
#24 ·
Normal

I finally got a group of folks at the dealer to hear this noise and they declared that it's NORMAL. They say lots of the Toyota 4-cylinders make this noise and that most people aren't paying attention.
So the issue with my car is that the driver is observant. :dunce:
 
#25 ·
I finally got a group of folks at the dealer to hear this noise and they declared that it's NORMAL. They say lots of the Toyota 4-cylinders make this noise and that most people aren't paying attention.
So the issue with my car is that the driver is observant. :dunce:
Yay for special hearing of strange noises! lol I guess this is a good thing then?
 
#27 ·
I have listened to your audio. My 09 Matrix 1.8 with 38K sounds exactly the same on warm start after sitting for 45 min. The dealer has verified the noise and thought it to be associated with the cold start valve timing TSB. They ordered parts and took care of that but no real difference.

This week on my oil change they said 5W-30 would not void the warranty so I had them put that in but the noise is still there, although maybe not quite as bad. I don't know when this started because I bought it as a certified vehicle with 34K and included the complete extended warranty. I'm glad of that at least!

BTW, has yours gotten any worse?
 
#29 ·
I have listened to your audio. My 09 Matrix 1.8 with 38K sounds exactly the same on warm start after sitting for 45 min. The dealer has verified the noise and thought it to be associated with the cold start valve timing TSB. They ordered parts and took care of that but no real difference.

BTW, has yours gotten any worse?
It has gotten worse. It's not a lot louder, but it happens more often.

I didn't like the response I got from the dealer so I contacted the regional office and sent them the recording. A technician listened to it and decided that it sounded enough like the cold start valve TSB that they would authorize my car for warranty work to perform that TSB. That was back around the beginning of June.

I have been waiting now over three months for them to get a part in for the TSB work. I am not happy. I've begun regularly telling anybody that I discuss it with that I really wish I'd held on to my '93 Camry. Or bought an Accord. Or even a Sonata. I really like the styling on the previous generation Sonata (not the new curvy one). Anyway, I'm really getting tired of all of the Toyota problems with the recalls, poor quality, warranty work, and indifferent service. Right about now I'm thinking that any Toyota with a model year that starts with a "2" is probably not a good idea.
 
#35 ·
I completely get that. It's really embarrassing when I start it up around a group of people -- the type of group that changes their own oil. They all look at it like "what was that?" Yeah, that was my NEW CAR. :facepalm:

My NEW engine should NEVER. MAKE. THAT. SOUND. :rolleyes:
 
#37 ·
Don't think that any dealerships are better from other auto makers either. Odds are you will get the issue solved & you will put many trouble free miles on your Corolla just like I have on every Corolla that I've owned over the years. :D
 
#41 · (Edited)
John Mo or Others,
Did you ever get the warm start rattle fixed? I have a 2010 with under 300 miles and noticed this noise twice. It has never done it cold, but I've noticed it after driving somewhere and coming back after about 45 to 60 minutes and starting it up.

Maybe this is something that is inherent with the design of the engine, but certainly not something you expect on a new vehicle.
 
#42 ·
Mine had the cam gear TSB done on it and it still rattles. It's not exactly the same tone, but it's the same noise. I've had it back to the dealer for that and the ticking noises in the windshield and both got a "could not reproduce."

The engine rattle is much more intermittent now, but it's been winter and it's less prevalent in the winter. The windshield ticks are more prevalent in the winter. So I have annoyances for all seasons. :lol:

I've got a little over 58k miles on mine now. I guess at this point I just keep driving it. If the engine lets go somewhere down the line, people will say, hey, look you got 150k trouble-free miles out of that car.
 
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