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Basic Stereo upgrade

92K views 229 replies 27 participants last post by  Phil Indeblanc 
#1 · (Edited)
Basic Stereo upgrade (not so basic)

Since I think I have all the pieces I need except for some last bits of wires, I'm starting a thread to document my stereo build. I hope to learn and hope to help others as I document the installation.(and not disjoint other threads).0:)

I just pieced all my components together. I really wanted to go 3 way in the front as Sweeney had first suggested, I didn't... I think I might have been 1 or 2 octaves happier, BUT.,..I did get the speakers I wanted.
***UPDATE:(See full update list below) I swapped out the tweeters in dash to 2ways (Morel Integra Hybrid), so now it is a 3 way setup.

List of gear:
MBQuart QSD216 old classics I loved from about a decade ago(6.5" + 25mm tweeter separates for front door and likely dash. I will have to audition where tweets go best, in stock location or on doors just above the mirror adjuster knob, somewhat off axis, we'll see.
UPDATE: Removed tweeters and installed 4" Morel Integra Hybrids.
MBQuart Ref separate 6x9 Also 10 year old NewStock. For rear doors. (tweeters go nice right in front of handles). This will require a bit of custom retrofitting a baffle for the 6.5" space to take 6x9" driver.
***This has been changed to 6.5" separates, as I found out the 6x9"s do not fit the rear. They fit the front. I knew they were designed for the 6x9 in front, but sound preference would have been more basss from rear vs front doors at the knees. Thats why I tried, but "no can do".

RF 3Sixty.3 DSP for keeping the head unit and going active and sound improvements.
***(Updated:Changed HU to Pioneer AH-4100NEX, with 13 band and time delay! Removed DSP/for sale :)

MTX 4300x old school 4ch to power the front speakers bi amped and active crossover.
***Updated to JL HD600 4ch amp.
JBL GTO3EZ 3 ch class AB/D for rear door speakers and possible sub (2ohm stable)
Infinity Perfect 10" Dual Voice Coil subwoofer, This will likely go in later, or I may feel that I just don't care enough to put it in. I know i would be so much happier with it in, but I just dont know if I want to spend another $400-700 for a resin box build.
Oddly everything and even amp will be installed to run it.
***Update: 10" Sub fiberglass box was made!
REmoved Infinity 10" sub and replaced with JL 10W6 dvc

I have most of the wiring but will need more RCA's :)
Will also be deadening the doors and some areas with 36sqft of Knu Kolosus material. (UPDATED: Did the entire car interior from firewall to cargo. Best thing you can do to the car regardless of stereo)
Link to deadening:https://www.toyotanation.com/forum/...sited-after-sound-deadening.html#post13327050


As of September 2016...
***UPDATE:
I replaced the dash tweeters with Morel Hybrid Integra 402 4" Point Source speakers. So now it is a 2 way on the dash and the 3rd is in the door, so it is a 3way setup.

It was important to get more than just a small tweeter on the dash as most basic tweeters play 2000Hz and up, and I had too much of the sound at my knees from door speaker. This was important enough to change to the Morel Point Source, and mage a BIG difference in raising the front stage.
Before I was around 2800Hz and above in frequency at dash level, and all else was in the lower doors. Now I have about 700-900Hz and up, at ear level!
So now running a 2way on dash and the mid bass in the doors giving a 3 way UP front "stage".

I also rewired the entire system, and sound proofed the floor and firewall, and doors with CLD, CCF and MLV. Lowered the road noise in the car by about -4+dB's (tested later as higher)

This entire thread is a bit long in the DSP "Tuning" aspects of things, so skip over that for the more important pages, as I removed the DSP once I got rid of the stock HeadUnit. Read if you want to know what a POS the stock HU is.

HERE ARE THE PICTURES:
***Since the hosting may have changed you can see all the pix at this link...
https://postimg.org/gallery/2s6rkdg8m/


Head unit BEFORE adjusting flush:
https://www.toyotanation.com/forum/...777-basic-stereo-upgrade-13.html#post11555161

Dash speakers upgraded:
https://www.toyotanation.com/forum/...777-basic-stereo-upgrade-14.html#post11614465

Sub box installed
https://www.toyotanation.com/forum/...9777-basic-stereo-upgrade-10.html#post9767210
---------------

These links are missing the pictures....
https://www.toyotanation.com/forum/...39777-basic-stereo-upgrade-4.html#post9649993

https://www.toyotanation.com/forum/...39777-basic-stereo-upgrade-4.html#post9650033

https://www.toyotanation.com/forum/...39777-basic-stereo-upgrade-5.html#post9665921

https://www.toyotanation.com/forum/...39777-basic-stereo-upgrade-6.html#post9679017

https://www.toyotanation.com/forum/...39777-basic-stereo-upgrade-6.html#post9691937

https://www.toyotanation.com/forum/...39777-basic-stereo-upgrade-7.html#post9699361

https://www.toyotanation.com/forum/...39777-basic-stereo-upgrade-8.html#post9716617

https://www.toyotanation.com/forum/...39777-basic-stereo-upgrade-8.html#post9739946

Sub woofer installed: SUB PICTURES here....
https://www.toyotanation.com/forum/...9777-basic-stereo-upgrade-10.html#post9767210

https://www.toyotanation.com/forum/...9777-basic-stereo-upgrade-11.html#post9850018
 
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#4 · (Edited)
I always thought things in LA are more expensive than the majority of other states and cities. But when it comes to materials fabricated, Its actually a lot less.

I did some research on how a box would be made to fit the rear side, and I priced out the a few places east mid north, as they were referred to me, but it turns out they are all more than either of the places here in LA.
So far from 3 locations here vs 3 elsewhere, they were at least $100 more, besides, I'd have to ship it! (just resin box no sub).

Just an FYI for anyone doing fab work
 
#5 ·
has anyone tried the 'Bongiovi DPS' accessory add-on for the OE stereo? this is a Toyota approved accessory supplied in partnership with a Canadian outfit. the unit is ~$250 at my local dealer, install is 1hr if they do it. it is supposed to enhance the stock head unit, possibly just boosting the output and frequency separation.

http://www.toyota.ca/cgi-bin/WebObj...Customization.NewAccBongiovi&language=english
 
#163 ·
Bongiovi DPS for Toyota

has anyone tried the 'Bongiovi DPS' accessory add-on for the OE stereo? this is a Toyota approved accessory supplied in partnership with a Canadian outfit. the unit is ~$250 at my local dealer, install is 1hr if they do it. it is supposed to enhance the stock head unit, possibly just boosting the output and frequency separation.

http://www.toyota.ca/cgi-bin/WebObj...Customization.NewAccBongiovi&language=english


I got my hands on one the other day and installed it. The problem is that right up front they say it does not work with the JBL System. I believe because there is an outboard amp. Never the less I tried it. There are various electronic adjustments depending on which Toyota you have. The Highlander adjustment was just not as good as the stock system. So I pulled it out and am sending it back. For a lessor system it would most likely improve the sound. It essentially is an outboard amp.
Manny
 
#6 · (Edited)
WOW, that is some amazing marketing BS...so first thing ....
show viewer a couple samples of a trunk full of amps and subs, then talk about something that will improve your stereo, then throw in a bunch of musicians names to support the claim....with an added visual of average people in the car bobbing to the AMAZING sounds! SOLD!

What it likely does is use time delay settings preset to each interior speaker location, then digitally cleans up and processes the signals with EQing, it may also have a built in amplifier. I'm not that familiar with what available these days, but I know DSP's /Digital Signal Processors do that sort of thing.

JBL MS-8 will do this properly, AudioControl has a few $200 options, Audison Bit10 does this very well also. But this one is already configured to the space. It doesn't look like you can adjust any of this. Digital Power Station sounds a lot like Digital Signal Processor, DPS vs DSP. The 3rd video is most informative.

With the Toyota JBL stereo system, I would have thought and hoped that they would have already done a *space reading with a mic to optimize the sound/time align, etc. And from the video it suggests that it hasn't been done.

I'm sure it will make a good chunk of improvement, as it says "dramatically" change the experience. I also heard in that 3rd video that it does have some amplification.
For over $200, I think an adjustable DSP would be money well spent. But only the more pricey JBL has amplification. The MS-8 is $400 on sale and I think would be leaps and bounds better than this. Its also something you can still use if you change your speakers, car, etc as you would simply retune the processor to what ever space you apply it to. Versus the fixed setup in this offer of DPS
 
#8 ·
...I would have thought and hoped that they would have already done a space mic reading to optimize the sound.
Must be where JBL and Toy lost the wheels on the donkey cart; the test mic would have picked up silence from being that far away and in a vacuum. I.e. space mic...

I think someone misplaced their intercranial spacial detector...
 
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#9 ·
the test mic would have picked up silence from being that far away and in a vacuum.
Doesn't matter how far or close..the speaker won't pick up anything in a vacuum.

Back when companies like Bose and JBL first started designing systems for vehicles....they would use about a dozen microphones strategically placed in designing the system. I'm not seeing that being done anymore. I'm NOT a fan of Bose...but my 98 Pathfinder had the Bose system. It was done right. Excellent sound from a vehicle.
 
#12 ·
Doesn't matter how far or close..the speaker won't pick up anything in a vacuum.
Speakers aren't receivers (microphones), unless this is an old school intercom.

Back when companies like Bose and JBL first started designing systems for vehicles....they would use about a dozen microphones strategically placed in designing the system.
Don't know about a dozen, but multi-mic measurement is easy to accomplish and whether we agree on the results in the HL, JBL surely measured extensively.

We simply don;t know what the design compromises were, nor what direction they were given by Toy regarding tuning.

As for merits of the OEM loudspeaker quality, you have to be careful, as any aesthetic/finsih accoutrements or impressions that a manufacturer might put onto a product designed for the sales channel, are deleted for cost reasons in mass produced and "unseen" components. Treated paper (cellulose) is actually an exceptional LF/HF cone material; cheap, well damped and when coated, quite stable in humid and widely varying temperature conditions. Bose used this for years in their consumer products, without shame and with considerable success.

Take notice of pro level drivers; pretty plain Jane. Lots of paper cones. Lots of polyproelen in outdoor applications. All practical. Nobody to impress with esoteric cone materials, magnet size wars, cast frames (unless the rigidity is actually required).

The basket, voice coils and magnets for OEM car use were surely optimized for whatever mounting conditions, power and frequency range they were designed for. Nothing more.

I know my '08 HL base sound system measures and sounds pretty decent. doesn't have the crispness that a good dome tweet provides, but that's easily remedied. LF response is very good, and it has no sub! It won't play at volumes more than 92 dBA or so, but I don't need it to. Not in the car, at least.
 
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#11 ·
I heard the Bongiovi guy say it "Amplifies" in the 3rd video. So maybe a bit more than EQing. But that would be amplify on to of the amp already, so hmmm/?

For the basic sound system, the speaker I pulled out of the rear door was one limiting factor.
 
#14 ·
Speakers aren't receivers (microphones), unless this is an old school intercom.
Yup...Meant Mic.

A speaker is just a Mic in reverse.

Don't know about a dozen, but multi-mic measurement is easy to accomplish and whether we agree on the results in the HL, JBL surely measured extensively.
I don't know either...but when the first systems designed by Bose and JBL came out...they were claiming to use dozens of well placed mics for optimal performance.
 
#15 · (Edited)
I agree with you on the paper cones. Paper is known to resonate sound very accurately. coatings surely help the life of them in a car.
The Bose in the 90's with Delco made some decent car audio as in the Vet.
Just that some resemble coffee filters, while others can withstand some actual power driving them.


AVConsult, I would understand that mic array with realtime analysis was done to the HL with JBL, as the channels are split?
I doubt anything was done to the basic. Which is a major plus(makes it easier for me to rip it out).
 
#19 ·
AVConsult, I would understand that mic array with realtime analysis was done to the HL with JBL, as the channels are split?
I doubt anything was done to the basic. Which is a major plus.
What you hear is the result of a quite intentional design effort, I assure you. You may not *like* the results, but that is a different matter.

Unlike a DIY, the Toy engineer (possibly JBL who was also hired to design the base system but use generic or un-badged components) chose all the loudspeakers carefully to perform best within the limitation of the head unit power output and onboard DSP capacity to shape base EQ (when user bass/treble are at 0). If the engineer had latitude into the loudspeaker physical design, then he may have been able to tweak that instead of relying on DSP as much.

I'd guess that Toy has an internal catalog of loudspeakers made to certain voice coil impedance, power handling, response, material, humidity and temp specs, and then applied to various standard and custom form factors and mounting conditions (depth, HL door, Camry door..).

I'd bet dinner that each vehicle gets a certain # of man hrs for measurement and basic DSP EQ settings.

I am soon to inherit our '08HL as my daily driver. My intention is to measure the electrical response of each head unit amp channel and then the acoustic response and sensitivity of speakrs. Not hard to do, and using cheap software, laptop or desktop computer and cheap mic.

Who knows, maybe I'll get a wild hair--just the one hair-- and add a subwoofer, or a dome tweet to boost the high end to my taste, since the treble control doesn't offer fine control over that. I'll will at least be armed with a basis to make *predicable* changes to the system.
 
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#20 ·
any good microphones you can recommend? I'll be using the RFosgate DSP, and may use Smaart, or TrueRTA software to do some readings also...

But honestly, the more I think about it, the less I have time for all this.....who am I kidding....
If I put these in and they end up sounding pretty darn good for my satisfaction, I'll just let out some steam (Like Bennett in the movie Commando. Arnold Says.."Let out some steam Bennett"), and be happy, leave it alone....Besides, the long road trips will tell me how good they are and if I need to adjust anything.
 
#21 ·
It wouldn't take 30 min to make some baseline measurements and do some judicious level and EQ balancing. Will make quite a difference over a coin toss of driver, EQ and amp settings.

I have TrueRTA on my garage computer that I use for DIY loudspeaker and crossover design. Great program! The "sweep" function is very useful, as is the 1/12 and 1/24 octave RTA.

We use Smaart and SystemTune at work, but overkill if just for this application.

As for inexpensive test mics for computer:

[ame]http://www.amazon.com/BEHRINGER-MEASUREMENT-CONDENSER-MICROPHONE-ECM8000/dp/B000HT4RSA[/ame]

[ame]http://www.amazon.com/Dayton-Audio-UMM-6-Measurement-Microphone/dp/B00ADR2E68[/ame]

For Phone/Ipad:

Audio Tools for iOS
Audio Tool for ANdroid

[ame]http://www.amazon.com/MicW-Calibrated-Measurement-External-Microphone/dp/B00510Y3KC[/ame]

This one isn't a class 2 measurement mic, but linear enough for most DIY car audio work.

[ame]http://www.amazon.com/Switcheasy-ThumbTacks-Microphone-touch-Black/dp/B0021IAJEG[/ame]
 
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#24 ·
I got a quote today for the install, and it put a frown on my face reaaally quick, almost $1k
(didn't make sense, since most of it is direct replace, and straight forward...70% at least. But it is a shop that was used to making lots of money from the 90's and they are a bit elite.

I am gaining courage to do some of it myself, but I just can't seam to get passed the wiring part. I have done a number of install things myself, maybe more complex, but taking out molding to run wires is just something I have trouble with on a newer car. I have done it on past old cars, but, I also remember driving them with missing parts for a few days while I figured out about a part, or whatever took me for ever to deal with.
 
#25 ·
I would expect an install like ours to take a pro a minimum of 7 hours (pulling interior, running wires, installing amp, DSP, Battery/fuse connection, making connection to HU re-install interior and finally tuning) this is without sound deadening work and speaker baffles..

Shop rate has to be around 100 per hour to keep the doors open in the peoples republic of So Cal.
So 1k sounds about right to me.
Problem is some shop will say they will do the same for 500.
They pay rent and all the associated costs just like the next guy so you have to ask yourself how do they do it.
Its likely that the low baller will do a crappy job.
If somebody is going to run welding cable from my battery to my amps (Think smoke then think fire) I will be looking really hard at his past work and reputation.
Next concern is a hiss or whine noise after install.
How hard will the installer work to mitigate the problem before he blames it on components I bought.
Finally, will things be put back together correctly or will i have damaged interior pcs that rattle.
 
#26 · (Edited)
This was with 20sqft of deadner. He said 10-14hrs. His shop was very slow. He also wanted close to $500 more for a fiber box build.
Your in SoCal?

...Well in SoCal we have $3-5sqft rent, and then we have .70cents a sqft rent.
We have $16-25per hour installers, and we have career installers, some get commission with jobs, and some are the store owners.
Shops usually have a couple perm guys. One who can do good wiring, one who fabricates well, and so on.
But, yes to have the overhead and run a business, I can understand. When you know most of the work involved, its a bit harder to accept :)

I did get another quote for $750 with the fiber subbox. Very well rated/Yelp. His shop was very busy. I did forget to have him include the deadener in the quote.
I did get 2 other lower quotes from $450 to 500. Low balls.
At first, before some more complex changes, I asked BestBuy to price it out. This was before the box came up, and before the DSP, and they were at $350. Literally swapping speakers and adding amp. So now they would still be under $500.
Why I like the idea of BBuy is that if something electrical is an issue, I rather deal with BestBuy than a shop owner who knows every trick to get out of a situation. Problem with BBuy is that 1 out of 3to5 is a real installer

In all situations I am providing all material including wires and deadner, etc. I will likely need some RCAs, or something.
I wish I could have someone come to me and install it.
 
#29 ·
So some updates, but will have pix later on.
The rear seats when folded move down much closer to the floor. When in the up position, it looks like plenty room to put amps under, but! After taking it out making measurements we see that it doesn't fit. Nor do they fit under 2nd row! So by removing the front seat ducting extension on one side for air, one amp and DSP fit in the front rather well. Other amp in rear compartment.

So far the front baffles and door speakers are in nice and clean. Wiring for tweeters are about done. We have the deadening material, and ....Today I hope we can finish it all.
 
#30 · (Edited)
Update that anyone can benefit from!!!

We took about 4 hours or more and used a high quality deadening material on the doors. Adding about 30 pounds of rubber and foilback material to the doors. Each door took about 3 sheets on the outside skin and inside skin of the doors.

Amazing of how solid the doors now feel, just a world of difference, specially since our metal sheeting is so thin. It feels like an old Rolls Royce, hehehe...seriously should consider doing this. I did 4 doors with a little help of another person for a few hours.

The deadening material was about 150, the time spent was about 4 hours, and the results are priceless (not to mention the dramatic improvement in sound response it will give me)
 
#31 ·
The wiring is almost all done! all the connections are made and they are routed. All the seats had to come out. One thing I already love about the Toyota is how well the door panels are made. You take them off and put back on 100 times and they would perform the same. My VW was nothing like this. Each time you took it off you felt it getting weaker at the snap points, and the way the fabric was wrapped, it was more likely to come off over time.

So the tweeters go in today, the rear doors get done, and then subwoofer measurements to build a hybrid box, of wood and fiberglass.
 
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