Toyota eyeing Renault-Nissan courtship of GM

[Bakemono]

http://www.nyse.com/interface/jsp/NH...sdowjones=true

Toyota Motor Corp. (TM) is keeping a close eye on the proposed alliance of General Motors Corp. (GM), Nissan Motor Co. (NSANY) and Renault SA ( 13190.FR).
The three-way tie-up doesn't appear to pose any immediate business threat to Japan's No. 1 car company, which continues to grow steadily in market share and profits while going it alone for the most part. Toyota has opted for only limited collaboration with rivals, on certain products for certain markets.
But a partnership that will bring struggling General Motors into the seven- year alliance between Nissan Motor of Japan and Renault of France would have symbolic and, perhaps, political significance.
It would be the biggest ever in sheer size, boasting a combined annual production of 15 million vehicles, or about one-fourth of world production.
That has raised speculation that Toyota might ready an alternative offer if the deal doesn't work out. It has Toyota executives talking, if not revealing any plans.

Koji Endo, auto analyst at Credit Suisse First Boston Securities in Tokyo, believes no Japanese auto maker - Toyota, Honda Motor Co. (HMC) or Nissan - has much to gain in the short run by buying a stake in GM.
The Japanese auto makers are doing fine on their own - boosting market share in the U.S. as soaring oil prices make fuel-efficient models such as the Toyota Corolla and Honda Civic increasingly attractive. The last thing they need is to take on ailing GM, Endo said.

Damn right!

Burdened with towering health-care and pension costs for its workers, GM is in the red, losing $10.6 billion last year, shuttering plants and sending thousands of workers to early retirement. Last week, GM reported a better-than-expected $ 3.2 billion loss for the second quarter, mostly on employee buyouts and other restructuring costs.
By contrast, when Toyota reports first fiscal quarter earnings Friday, it expects solid profits and sales, especially in the U.S.

Toyota officials say they used to look to GM as an example when Toyota was building its business and playing catch-up with American auto makers. Toyota and GM set up a joint venture manufacturing plant in Fremont, Calif., in 1984, called New United Motor Manufacturing Inc., or NUMMI, and the two companies have exchanged information on advanced environmental technology for autos.
The nervousness about GM's recent problems has been growing as it became increasingly clear that Toyota's and GM's fates couldn't be more different.
Toyota's profits are ballooning, at $12 billion for the fiscal year ended March 31, its sixth straight record fiscal year, boosting market share in the U.S. thanks to a reputation for quality and fuel efficiency.

I saw this article and just had to share!

[ECHOKnight2000]

Thanks for the article. Yeah its come to point were the supposed alliance or partnership is GM's short term benifit and really it doens't do any company that partners with GM any good cause the Japanse auto makers (overall) are doing better than GM. The Nissan/Renult thing is just another leg GM can sit on but its only temporary and it won't do either company good, if it ever happends or goes through.

[Bakemono]

GM needs to work on fixing their own problems before they join up with other troubled automakers.

[nyscene911]

Originally Posted by ECHOKnight2000

Thanks for the article. Yeah its come to point were the supposed alliance or partnership is GM's short term benifit and really it doens't do any company that partners with GM any good cause the Japanse auto makers (overall) are doing better than GM. The Nissan/Renult thing is just another leg GM can sit on but its only temporary and it won't do either company good, if it ever happends or goes through.

I highlighted what I think to be true. The deal with fetch GM(and particularly Kerkorkian) a bunch of cash, but wouldn't really help. What would they gain access to? The VQ motor? I'm not sure Nissan would let that find its way into a bunch of Pontiacs. Nissan-Renault would find itself with a way to sell more cars and to improve their truck, but at the cost of joining a company that still has HUGE overheads and generally declining sales to complement their own loss of sales in the US. It'd just be one big headache. Though it could make for some interesting advertising slogans:
"Chevrolet: An American Shift_"

[Bakemono]

Nissan doesnt need help with their trucks. The Frontier and Titan are superior to the Colorado/Canyon and Silverado/Sierra.

[Blacksupra93]

Originally Posted by Octane

Nissan doesnt need help with their trucks. The Frontier and Titan are superior to the Colorado/Canyon and Silverado/Sierra.

I heard somewehre theyre discontinuing the titan...but now i cant find the article...so maybe im wrong

[rolla-XRS]

Nissan would be stupid to go down this road. It would be the end of GM, Nissan, and Renault and put this merged company into utter chaos for a decade (ie: more market share for Toyota/Honda which would put more pressure on GM/Nissan/Renault).

Besides, can you imaging the corporate culture shock at GM when they'd have to deal with French and Japanese cultures? Chaos doesn't even begin to describe it.

I say...BRING IT ON!

[Z28Wilson]

Originally Posted by Octane

Nissan doesnt need help with their trucks. The Frontier and Titan are superior to the Colorado/Canyon and Silverado/Sierra.

You might have an argument with the Frontier. The Titan is better than the GM full-sizers? Huh???

[Bakemono]

Whats so great about GM's fullsize trucks? Ive driven both Silverados and a Titan, and the Titan is 10x the truck those Chevies were.

[Z28Wilson]

Originally Posted by Octane

Whats so great about GM's fullsize trucks? Ive driven both Silverados and a Titan, and the Titan is 10x the truck those Chevies were.

Guess it depends on your point of view? The GM trucks have

More powertrain configurations, including the Duramax and world-class Allison transmission.
More available horsepower and torque.
Get as good or better fuel mileage across the board.
Almost identical interior dimensions.
GM trucks model-for-model tow more (up to 10,400 pounds for the half-ton).
GM trucks model-for-model have a higher payload rating (two times as much in some cases)

I'd say in sheer capabilities, it's a no-brainer. And these are the old GM models. Did I mention the GM trucks outsell the Titan better than 10 to 1? What did you find better?

[Bakemono]

Originally Posted by Z28Wilson

Guess it depends on your point of view? The GM trucks have

More powertrain configurations, including the Duramax and world-class Allison transmission.

We are talking half ton trucks here, so the Duramax and Allison doesnt apply.

Originally Posted by Z28Wilson

More available horsepower and torque.
Get as good or better fuel mileage across the board.
Almost identical interior dimensions.
GM trucks model-for-model tow more (up to 10,400 pounds for the half-ton).
GM trucks model-for-model have a higher payload rating (two times as much in some cases)

If you think that GM's trucks have more power, haul more and get the same or better milage, you are living in fantasy land. My brother works for a concrete company and they have all Chevy work trucks. The 2500s with 6.0Ls get about 14 mpg on the highway and even the 1/2 tons with 5.3Ls are only getting about 16 mpg on the highway. So, dont try to feed me a line of BS saying that GM engines put out more power AND get better milage. It aint gonna happen. To make more power you must burn more fuel.

Originally Posted by Z28Wilson

Did I mention the GM trucks outsell the Titan better than 10 to 1?

Yeah, and GM has been making fullsize trucks a lot longer than has Nissan, so you can expect better brand loyalty.
The Titan has at least one thing on the GM trucks: front AND rear limited slip.

[Z28Wilson]

Originally Posted by Octane

We are talking half ton trucks here, so the Duramax and Allison doesnt apply.

Ok, that's fine.

Originally Posted by Octane

If you think that GM's trucks have more power, haul more and get the same or better milage, you are living in fantasy land. My brother works for a concrete company and they have all Chevy work trucks. The 2500s with 6.0Ls get about 14 mpg on the highway and even the 1/2 tons with 5.3Ls are only getting about 16 mpg on the highway. So, dont try to feed me a line of BS saying that GM engines put out more power AND get better milage. It aint gonna happen. To make more power you must burn more fuel.

I'm going by EPA mileage estimates on Nissan and Chevrolet's websites. Real world mileage will always vary depending on your driving characteristics, whether you're towing/hauling, etc. Do you really think the DOHC Titan gets better fuel mileage under comparable conditions? I'd like to see that. Remember that cylinder deactivation is available on the 5.3 as well, technology Nissan doesn't offer.

As far as your engineering theories, why yes, I am living in the real world. My LS1 makes more horsepower and torque than most any family sedan on the market--in some cases twice as much--and I still get close to 30 mpg highway. So there goes your theory. Engines can be powerful and efficient.

Originally Posted by Octane

Yeah, and GM has been making fullsize trucks a lot longer than has Nissan, so you can expect better brand loyalty.

Ohhhh, that's right I forgot, it's only the rednecks and morons that are buying GM trucks. I'm just asking a question. You claimed the Titan is 10 times the truck the GMs are, yet the GMs outsell the Titan by 10 times....at least. America must really be stupid!

[TTercel]

Titan FTW

[dsmnick]

I would hardly call the Titan "10x the truck" of the GM twins. The Titan has been haunted with QC issues...even our old buddy Consumer Reports gave them a "worse tha average" reliability rating. Have we all forgotten the warped rotor debacle that plagued the Titan right after it was released, with complaints of "violent shaking" of the brakes?

The Canton plant where the Titan is built (that also produces the Armada, QX56, and Quest) has been criticized for poor build quality, part of the reason Nissan ranks so low on initial quality reports.

[zeorai]

I think an alliance would be very costly, probably a mistake in the short term. However, there are some definite benefits. Like some have already pointed out, GM's truck platform and technologies for both Renault and Nissan. For GM, access to decent small car platforms and technology. Does this mean that GM would actually make a decent small and mid-sized car? IMO, probably not. GM management just doesn't seem interested in building those vehicles.

It seems it's not for a lack of talent, it's more a lack of will on GM's part. Take for example the C6 Z06, an amazing car, not the regular Vette, the Z06. It really is a giant killer and GM did actually make it. If they took the will and determination to make the Z06 and applied it to a small car I think GM could actually make a decent small car. It's just that managment seems to place almost no priority in making a good small car, or mid-sized for that matter. Cheap and good enough seem to be the hallmarks of their small cars, which oddly is very similar to the mantra that the Korean manufacturers used when they first entered the US market. I find that odd. I know it's a bad comparison, because GM's small and mid-sized cars are not THAT bad, but everyone has to admit the difference between a Civic or Corolla, and a Cavalier or Cobalt are tremendous.