"Transmissions
While advancing multi-stage automatic transmissions and continuously variable transmissions, TMC will introduce a highly efficient compact six-speed manual transmission in the fall of 2008."
This link has all kinds of information, but this one about the transmissions caught my eye. Can anyone confirm that the US models will get the new 6 speed manual?
Seems interesting, though I'm curious what line is this new 6 spd for? Just because there is one doesn't mean it'll fit a car you want.
There are a few current possible uses for that 6 spd.
GR series V6, longitudinally mounted (RWD, ie Lexus IS)
GR series V6, transversely mounted (FWD, ie Camry V6)
AR series I4, transverse (Venza, maybe Matrix/Corolla XRS)
ZR series I4, transvere (Corolla, Matrix, possible valvematic engine for new XRS)
BOXER engines, new Subaru collab coupe
Tundra V8 engines.
I highly doubt it would be for a SUV though. And I would doubt its for one of the V8 sedans.
Related to that link regarding Toyota's action plan for the future, Toyota slipped in confirmation that a "Dual VVT-iE" system is coming in the future.
Could this be the rumoured fully-electric VVT system? Sure sounds like it.
"Transmissions
While advancing multi-stage automatic transmissions and continuously variable transmissions, TMC will introduce a highly efficient compact six-speed manual transmission in the fall of 2008."
This link has all kinds of information, but this one about the transmissions caught my eye. Can anyone confirm that the US models will get the new 6 speed manual?
Quote:
Originally Posted by EvoFire
Seems interesting, though I'm curious what line is this new 6 spd for? Just because there is one doesn't mean it'll fit a car you want.
There are a few current possible uses for that 6 spd.
GR series V6, longitudinally mounted (RWD, ie Lexus IS)
GR series V6, transversely mounted (FWD, ie Camry V6)
AR series I4, transverse (Venza, maybe Matrix/Corolla XRS)
ZR series I4, transvere (Corolla, Matrix, possible valvematic engine for new XRS)
BOXER engines, new Subaru collab coupe
Tundra V8 engines.
I highly doubt it would be for a SUV though. And I would doubt its for one of the V8 sedans.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcdawgg
Elsewhere, I have heard that it is for the smaller cars. In Australia, they already have the 6 speed on their Corolla.
According to other news that I have read, I am led to believe that the new, compact 6-speed transmission is for use in small, FWD cars.
Related to that link regarding Toyota's action plan for the future, Toyota slipped in confirmation that a "Dual VVT-iE" system is coming in the future.
Could this be the rumoured fully-electric VVT system? Sure sounds like it.
Where did you see that? Would the Dual VVT-iE system be Valvematic without variable valve lift and duration? Do you know if Valvematic is hydraulically or electrically controlled?
My apologies for all the questions. I am curious and interested in this new technology, but have not been able to find much information about it.
According to other news that I have read, I am led to believe that the new, compact 6-speed transmission is for use in small, FWD cars.
For years now some Toyota owners have complained about the lack of manual transmission offerings. I think that this 6 speed will go into a variety of cars in order to satisfy the demands of some Toyota owners wanting a manual option.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sulu
Where did you see that? Would the Dual VVT-iE system be Valvematic without variable valve lift and duration? Do you know if Valvematic is hydraulically or electrically controlled?
My apologies for all the questions. I am curious and interested in this new technology, but have not been able to find much information about it.
If you go on the www.toyota.co.jp/en website, and click on the environmental forum button, there is a PDF presentation from Masatami Takimoto, Executive Vice President of TMC:
On page 6 of this presentation, you can see that Toyota has slipped in confirmation of a "Dual VVT-iE" system, as part of Toyota's evolution of their gasoline engine. You can also see the newly-announced stop-start system, along with Valvematic on that page as well. Also notice that Dual VVT-iE is mentioned right after Dual VVT-i, hinting that it's an evolution and replacement of Dual VVT-i.
Valvematic is electronically controlled by an electric motor which is tied to the car's ECU. Valvematic works in addition to, and together with Dual VVT-i. Dual VVT-i controls the valve timing on the intake and exhaust valves, as well controlling cam phasing. Valvematic pretty much allows for infinitely variable valve lift and duration and also removes the need for a throttle valve.
Dual VVT-iE has been rumoured amongst Toyota insiders for a while now. The origin of this rumour goes back to Toyota's ambition of raising the quality/reliability bar. Many Toyota insiders have long said that Toyota for years now has been working on ways to raise the bar in terms of quality/reliability compared to the competition. One of the ways Toyota has been doing that is replacing many mechanical parts in an automobile with dramatically more reliable (and efficient) electric parts. For example, hydraulic power steering being replaced by electric power steering. Another example is the increased use of electric A/C units. The newly announced stop-start system is an electronic system that will shut off the engine when its not needed, reducing wear and tear.
It's also been long said by insiders that Toyota has been frustrated by the reliability of hydraulic valve timing systems. Toyota is said to have increased quality and reliability standards in many areas of a vehicle, and the rumour is that Dual VVT-i does not meet Toyota's new standards. To achieve the reliability and quality standards Toyota is aiming for, they've been experimenting with electric VVT systems.
We now have VVT-iE in production on the GS460, LS460, LS600h, and IS-F. So far VVT-iE is only on the intake side, but even so it provides an increase in reliability as well as efficiency, as intake valve timing on those vehicles is electronically controlled, rather than hydraulically controlled.
Dual VVT-iE would mean both intake and exhaust valve timing are electronically controlled and electronically driven. Combined with Valvematic, this would mean a fully electric valve timing and lift system with nothing being hydraulically controlled. This would provide tremendous reliability gains as well as huge efficiency/performance increases. Toyota would be the first to market with such a system.
Nissan's recently developed VVEL system is an electronically controlled valve lift and duration system like Valvematic. Honda's upcoming A-VTEC system will also be an electronically controlled valve lift and duration system. The difference is that Honda and Nissan still rely on hydraulic control (oil pressure) for operating intake/exhaust valve timing.
With Dual VVT-iE and Valvematic, Toyota will now have the most advanced and efficient valve timing and lift system on the market.
For years now some Toyota owners have complained about the lack of manual transmission offerings. I think that this 6 speed will go into a variety of cars in order to satisfy the demands of some Toyota owners wanting a manual option.
If you go on the www.toyota.co.jp/en website, and click on the environmental forum button, there is a PDF presentation from Masatami Takimoto, Executive Vice President of TMC:
On page 6 of this presentation, you can see that Toyota has slipped in confirmation of a "Dual VVT-iE" system, as part of Toyota's evolution of their gasoline engine. You can also see the newly-announced stop-start system, along with Valvematic on that page as well. Also notice that Dual VVT-iE is mentioned right after Dual VVT-i, hinting that it's an evolution and replacement of Dual VVT-i.
Valvematic is electronically controlled by an electric motor which is tied to the car's ECU. Valvematic works in addition to, and together with Dual VVT-i. Dual VVT-i controls the valve timing on the intake and exhaust valves, as well controlling cam phasing. Valvematic pretty much allows for infinitely variable valve lift and duration and also removes the need for a throttle valve.
Dual VVT-iE has been rumoured amongst Toyota insiders for a while now. The origin of this rumour goes back to Toyota's ambition of raising the quality/reliability bar. Many Toyota insiders have long said that Toyota for years now has been working on ways to raise the bar in terms of quality/reliability compared to the competition. One of the ways Toyota has been doing that is replacing many mechanical parts in an automobile with dramatically more reliable (and efficient) electric parts. For example, hydraulic power steering being replaced by electric power steering. Another example is the increased use of electric A/C units. The newly announced stop-start system is an electronic system that will shut off the engine when its not needed, reducing wear and tear.
It's also been long said by insiders that Toyota has been frustrated by the reliability of hydraulic valve timing systems. Toyota is said to have increased quality and reliability standards in many areas of a vehicle, and the rumour is that Dual VVT-i does not meet Toyota's new standards. To achieve the reliability and quality standards Toyota is aiming for, they've been experimenting with electric VVT systems.
We now have VVT-iE in production on the GS460, LS460, LS600h, and IS-F. So far VVT-iE is only on the intake side, but even so it provides an increase in reliability as well as efficiency, as intake valve timing on those vehicles is electronically controlled, rather than hydraulically controlled.
Dual VVT-iE would mean both intake and exhaust valve timing are electronically controlled and electronically driven. Combined with Valvematic, this would mean a fully electric valve timing and lift system with nothing being hydraulically controlled. This would provide tremendous reliability gains as well as huge efficiency/performance increases. Toyota would be the first to market with such a system.
Nissan's recently developed VVEL system is an electronically controlled valve lift and duration system like Valvematic. Honda's upcoming A-VTEC system will also be an electronically controlled valve lift and duration system. The difference is that Honda and Nissan still rely on hydraulic control (oil pressure) for operating intake/exhaust valve timing.
With Dual VVT-iE and Valvematic, Toyota will now have the most advanced and efficient valve timing and lift system on the market.
Thanks! You have told me a lot of information that I was not fully aware of.
If anything desperately needs a 6 speed manual, it is either the IS350 or IS-F since they both are the only "performance cars" in Toyota lineup today and both only work with automatics and could use a more steep final drive and overall shorter gearing a manual can only offer.
It could be possible Toyota will introduce the IS350 and IS-F coupes with a 6 speed manual and develop an optional dual-clutch 7 speed electronic manual to replace the automatics.
__________________ SSM 05 Corolla XRS 6 Spd VVTL-i 2ZZ-GE /04 Corolla S 1ZZ-FE (sold)
If the "production" version pictures are to be believed, the new 6 speed should go into the iQ later this year.
Toyota already has a 6 speed manual in Auris, Avensis and so on, but not in the Yaris, and if it fits into the iQ, I'm sure Aygo and Yaris should follow.
something even better than dual vvt-i omg
=D
im so giddy
and vasia thanks for the Essay it was a good read.
VVT-iE for economodels
and Valvematic for sports models maybe?
is that what i am infering
if it is
that would be something
no longer will a sports version of a car be just body trim lol
__________________
Will make proper siggy later.
(RIP) 1992 Black Toyota Paseo (AKA little blacky) (RIP)
2001 Silver Toyota Celica ( AKA - Lady Tiamat- ) (rip)
2009 Silver Toyota Corolla ( AKA - Nonameyet)
If anything desperately needs a 6 speed manual, it is either the IS350 or IS-F since they both are the only "performance cars" in Toyota lineup today and both only work with automatics and could use a more steep final drive and overall shorter gearing a manual can only offer.
It could be possible Toyota will introduce the IS350 and IS-F coupes with a 6 speed manual and develop an optional dual-clutch 7 speed electronic manual to replace the automatics.
Is it not possible to offer a steep final drive ratio and shorter gearing with an automatic transmission? And isn't the final drive ratio a function of the final drive differential and not the transmission? And why would it not be possible to offer shorter gearing in an automatic transmission?
If anything desperately needs a 6 speed manual, it is either the IS350 or IS-F since they both are the only "performance cars" in Toyota lineup today and both only work with automatics and could use a more steep final drive and overall shorter gearing a manual can only offer.
It could be possible Toyota will introduce the IS350 and IS-F coupes with a 6 speed manual and develop an optional dual-clutch 7 speed electronic manual to replace the automatics.
A manual would make sense for the IS350, but what you've said makes no sense for the IS-F.
Shorter gearing for the IS-F? The 8 speed in the F already provides very short gearing, not to mention blazing fast shift speeds in manual mode. The 8 speed in manual mode shifts faster than one could ever possibly shift using a conventional manual transmission.
The LF-A is rumoured to be using a 7 speed sequential manual, which would be similar to what F1 cars currently use. The LF-A's transmission is also rear-mounted, with some of the suspension points connecting directly to the tranny, so don't expect to see it in widespread use in other Lexus models. It may possibly be adaptable for front mounting, but there is no indication of that at this point.
Is it not possible to offer a steep final drive ratio and shorter gearing with an automatic transmission? And isn't the final drive ratio a function of the final drive differential and not the transmission? And why would it not be possible to offer shorter gearing in an automatic transmission?
It is because having a steep final drive will make the car rev faster and stay in high revs more and generally to be safe, automatics do not handle high revs for extended period of time very well due to the heat and stress generated operating at higher revs. That is why you will not see automatics having a steep final drive combined with short gearing. It will generally be one or the other.
Lexus needs to get rid of that 8 speed automatic on the IS-F and atleast create a 7 speed dual-clutch electronic manual instead that they have been using in the LF-A as the auto may be decent in a straight line, but it is horrendous around a race track where rapid upshifts and downshifts are constantly required approaching and exiting corners. Constant banging into the rev limiter while taking to redline in every gear, refusing to downshift on command (a rude beeping sound instead) and confused gear hunting all the time for the right gear as there are way too many gears covering very small speed ranges with rev limit set at 6800 rpm (8 gears for only 6800 rpm rev range) is what the common complaint were of Tiff from Fifth gear to Best Motoring etc.
Let me put it this way, there is absolutely no advantage aside from the saving cost of having an 8 speed automatic over a Getrag 7 speed dual-clutch with the Getrag dual-clutch manuals found in the M3s, Skyline GT-R etc. are becoming smoother and faster than ever before (unlike the old single-clutch crude SMG system), but there are substantial advantages of having dual-clutch electronic manual over automatics.
Having a 6 speed manual standard and an optional 7 speed dual-clutch electronic manual will go a long way to make these cars more competitive with the rivals while keeping people in both camps happy. It is a win-win situation for everyone (except cost of R & D for Lexus/Toyota).
__________________ SSM 05 Corolla XRS 6 Spd VVTL-i 2ZZ-GE /04 Corolla S 1ZZ-FE (sold)
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