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Old 11-27-2012, 10:02 PM   #61 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Vmax2007 View Post
Toyota needs to give up on the full size truck in America. They've been trying for 20 years with no gain in market share. Americans don't want a full size Toyota...period.

They ought to focus on building a really good small (not midsize) truck **cough**Hilux**cough**...that market is up for grabs right now.
Somehow I got invited to a pre-release market review of the current generation Tundra. It was over in the corner with all its badges removed... along with all the other current full size trucks sold in the US... and a new Double Cab Tacoma with a long bed. I'd seen pictures of it on the internet, so I knew what the stranger in the corner was.. and was surprised that most of the reviewers thought it was a new Ford or Dodge.

I was totally unimpressed and actually very pissed off that Toyota had finally decided to build something SO BIG (especially that 4 door MEGA cab) that it wouldn't fit in a standard American garage... just like all the other monster trucks sold in the US. I expressed my disappointment with the new Tundra and the double cab long bed Tacoma in my review. And for the guy who said "hey, just write to Toyota and tell them what they need to change"... I've done that several times, and all I get is a reply that says "we're sorry you don't like our Toyota".

I'm on Toyota pickup #9 (2009 Tacoma)... but I've had several full size American pickups... and 6 El Caminos. My favorite of the Toyotas was my 86 SR5 Xtra cab 4X4... mostly because it was simple, and the RIGHT SIZE. But I'd rather have a new current sport ute from Australia (made by Holden/GM or Ford)... because the El Camino concept still works best for me. You can't get the same power or gas mileage out of a brick as you can from something that's light and aerodynamic. GM even makes a smaller version ute in Brazil, marketed as a Chevrolet Montana or Tornado in Mexico and Utility in South Africa.

Unfortunately Ford and GM decided that smaller pickups don't make them the profit that monster trucks do... and if they make a good one, they're only competing with their profit generators... and if anyone imports one, they have to deal with the "chicken tax" on import trucks.

So... don't be looking for any smaller pickups in the US... and if Toyota wants to waste its money on monster trucks... let em have at it. I won't be purchasing one... they won't fit in my garages... they get horrible gas mileage... they don't fit in parking spaces... and I don't have a 5th wheel to pull. Not unlike 75% of the pickup buyers in the US, the most that ever gets in the bed of my truck is a motorcycle. or a few bags of concrete... and there's no point in trying to carry a passel of kids in a gas guzzler pickup.
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Old 11-28-2012, 04:31 AM   #62 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by SuperGlider View Post
Unfortunately Ford and GM decided that smaller pickups don't make them the profit that monster trucks do... and if they make a good one, they're only competing with their profit generators... and if anyone imports one, they have to deal with the "chicken tax" on import trucks.

So... don't be looking for any smaller pickups in the US... and if Toyota wants to waste its money on monster trucks... let em have at it. I won't be purchasing one... they won't fit in my garages... they get horrible gas mileage... they don't fit in parking spaces..
The market shifted a few years ago away from a compact truck towards full size and to a lesser degree, mid size trucks. Just about everyone wants something bigger.

As for mileage most full size half tons get comparable mileage to mid size trucks.
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Old 11-28-2012, 02:17 PM   #63 (permalink)
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The market shifted a few years ago away from a compact truck towards full size and to a lesser degree, mid size trucks. Just about everyone wants something bigger.

As for mileage most full size half tons get comparable mileage to mid size trucks.
If full size half tons get comparable mileage to mid size trucks, it's because they're both shaped like a brick. But I have a Scan Gauge in my 09 Tacoma TRD Sport V6 auto, and I often get 25-27 MPG driving around Phoenix... and a couple times I've gotten 30 MPG in 20+ mile segments. I've owned several Corvettes and know that it's not that difficult to get 25 MPG driving around town and I've approached 40 MPG on the highway. That formula is all about horsepower to weight ratio and aerodynamics. The Holden and Ford sport utes built in Australia should be able to come close to those figures, because they're aerodynamic. They're basically our Corvette and Mustang with a bed on the back. Sure, if you drive like you're at a drag strip, you won't get any mileage, but when you're cruising down the highway in normal traffic, they're barely above idle. A friend of mine had a recent Pontiac GTO (actually they were rebadged Holden Monaros), and I witnessed first hand how much better gas mileage they get than a full sized pickup.


As for "everyone wants something bigger"... I gave you my reasons for not wanting something that you have to find a shopping center parking lot to park it in. The reason full size trucks sell better than my Tacoma is because the Tacoma costs just as much as an equivalent full size truck... and I've even bought a full size again recently, because I couldn't rationalize paying as much for a smaller truck as a big truck... but 13K miles later, I was back to a Tacoma... for all those aforementioned reasons. Aside from price, the biggest problem with a Tacoma is that it's shaped like a brick, and though it will get great mileage around town, as soon as I get on the freeway and want to do 80 MPH across the desert, aerodynamics kills the gas mileage. The BEST thing about a Tacoma is that I've driven several of them for under $1000 a year depreciation... and depreciation is the biggest cost of owning a vehicle.
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Old 11-28-2012, 05:47 PM   #64 (permalink)
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I hope they actually release a production-ready version at the show, not a stupid "concept" like Honda does.

I also hope they offer a diesel too, but I'm not going to hold my breath.
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Old 11-28-2012, 08:07 PM   #65 (permalink)
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I just hope they hired someone from Hyundai to provide some design input. I'm so tired of their boring vehicles, designed to not offend anyone, but excite no one The last thing half way exciting they produced was the FJ Cruiser... but it seems they're intent in letting it languish until everyone's totally bored with it, not unlike the Ridgeline.
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Old 11-28-2012, 08:28 PM   #66 (permalink)
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Hope they don't do the Quality degrade they did with the Camry in 2012 I sadly walked away in disbelief from a new Toyota shaking my head and after owning and loving many Camry's I could not buy in again with each new model I saw quality and some features removed I say 2012 is the bottom.

As for Trucks the Japanese should have kept the market they had in small trucks as the clock springs back in time and people realize the benefit of small trucks and that fuel consumption counts we're stuck in North America with outdated inefficient for the time small pickups. Toyota for 2013 should be selling a plug in pickup as a common engine; the hybrid would be a great tow vehicle with plenty of torque to get a boat up a boat ramp and still have great fuel consumption during the week. Today a small pickup would be sitting in the 50MPG + range had the trend in small trucks continued instead of trying to be something they were not; imagine a Ford ranger with a V8. I hope small pickups don't end up like some small cars of late; a year ago sold as cheap third car now added leather and sell a ford focus for $50,000.00 just nuts. What fools support this? 25 years ago a Farmer bought a pickup for $8,000.00 today $70,000.00 What fools support this. A 1300 Sqft house 50 years ago $15,000.00 same house today $550,000.00 (prices Ontario, CANADA) What fools supports this. Europeans work to live; North Americans live to Work; how true this is. Time for us all to buy only what we need and start living the good life again. Small Simple and efficient (S.S.E.).

Next time at the gas pump after holding pump handle for 3 minutes start thinking how many hours did you work this week to make the money that you just put in the tank and going down the hi-way at speed how many minutes will it all be gone. S.S.E ? Just a thought for your next purchase.
I Love my little old Small Simple and efficient pickup it can still pass a pump or two.
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Old 11-28-2012, 11:19 PM   #67 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Bem View Post
Hope they don't do the Quality degrade they did with the Camry in 2012 I sadly walked away in disbelief from a new Toyota shaking my head and after owning and loving many Camry's I could not buy in again with each new model I saw quality and some features removed I say 2012 is the bottom.

As for Trucks the Japanese should have kept the market they had in small trucks as the clock springs back in time and people realize the benefit of small trucks and that fuel consumption counts we're stuck in North America with outdated inefficient for the time small pickups. Toyota for 2013 should be selling a plug in pickup as a common engine; the hybrid would be a great tow vehicle with plenty of torque to get a boat up a boat ramp and still have great fuel consumption during the week. Today a small pickup would be sitting in the 50MPG + range had the trend in small trucks continued instead of trying to be something they were not; imagine a Ford ranger with a V8. I hope small pickups don't end up like some small cars of late; a year ago sold as cheap third car now added leather and sell a ford focus for $50,000.00 just nuts. What fools support this? 25 years ago a Farmer bought a pickup for $8,000.00 today $70,000.00 What fools support this. A 1300 Sqft house 50 years ago $15,000.00 same house today $550,000.00 (prices Ontario, CANADA) What fools supports this. Europeans work to live; North Americans live to Work; how true this is. Time for us all to buy only what we need and start living the good life again. Small Simple and efficient (S.S.E.).

Next time at the gas pump after holding pump handle for 3 minutes start thinking how many hours did you work this week to make the money that you just put in the tank and going down the hi-way at speed how many minutes will it all be gone. S.S.E ? Just a thought for your next purchase.
I Love my little old Small Simple and efficient pickup it can still pass a pump or two.
I totally agree BEM. I've written to Toyota several times and said that if they built the 86 SR5 4X4 Xtra cab pickup I bought new in 1986, I'd buy another one, and so would a million other people. It was a 4 cylinder 5 speed, and was the right size and simple. It was the first fuel injected 4 cylinder they sold in the US, but didn't get particularly great MPG. My current 09 V6 automatic probably does as well in the MPG department. I think the diesel they use in the Hilux everywhere else would be a better choice for a vehicle that size. I paid $12K for it new, and it was loaded. I drove it 3 years and sold it for $9K. If you could find a nice one like it today, I bet it would still be worth $4-5K. Unfortunately, the philosophy today is build it bigger, put more stuff on it, raise the price another $2 grand... and guess what, the bigger is better crowd eats it up.
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Old 11-30-2012, 07:41 PM   #68 (permalink)
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If you notice, I have not been involved in any Tundra discussions in several years here at TN. This is the the first one in many years.

Oh...and a whopping 150,000 miles huh? That many? nOOb

I am 46 and I have never been stranded by any car...GM or otherwise (one exception being my 79 Mustang, but that was my fault for not having the proper anti-freeze in it and it froze up on me on a -30 F night ). I'd estimate that at about 500,000 miles.
150,000 at age 23, mind you. I am on pace to drive 40k miles this year,. Bought my Camry in February of 2012, already 30K up on the car so far, plus about 1500 miles on my Goldwing and another 7K in my Cummins . Sucks on the antifreeze, its one of those expensive car lessons you have to learn though.

I once forgot to tighten the lug nuts on a trailer tire after repacking the wheel bearing. Long story short, the rim cut through the studs after about 20 miles and sent a tire right into someone's living room window. Thank God no one was hurt.
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Old 11-30-2012, 07:49 PM   #69 (permalink)
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To be honest, I think the Tundra will be irrelevant to the market until it offers a diesel engine. They should really really consider making a US emissions-friendly variant of the Hino 6.7L turbo diesel, maybe even a slightly smaller displacement engine to save on costs and to increase fuel economy.

Slightly over half of all Ram heavy duty trucks (3/4 and 1 tons) are bought new with diesel engines. The first maker to put a diesel in the all important 1/2 ton market at a reasonable premium will be the one to make a killing. Don't believe me? Look at all the diesel engine options Audi unveiled this week for several of their models. Corporate cousin VW is doing just fine with their TDI family; over a quarter of Jettas and Passats sold now feature a diesel engine under hood.

But yeah, because the people in the market for full sized trucks tend to have a lot of brand loyalty and come to the buying table with the notion that there are only three real full sized pickups in America, Toyota will need to do something better than slightly beat the competition with specs here and there. The diesel is the answer to the Tundra's relevancy problem.
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Old 12-01-2012, 02:36 PM   #70 (permalink)
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I'm convinced Toyota doesn't really care what we think they should build. They pretty much do the poll sampling that everyone else does, and build what the polls say. The way they migrated into the full size truck business tells me that they didn't want to ruffle any feathers by jumping into the fray and making everyone else look bad... so they just kept building something a little bigger, then a little bigger, then a little bigger... making a good product and building a fan base... giving the big 3 plenty of room to make fun of them, and knowing they could outsell everyone if they really wanted to. I don't expect to see them change that philosophy. At least Ford, GM and Dodge have been forced to make better products as a result of Toyota's presence in the market.
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