FWD Traction - 1/4 mile launch

[JoeB]

The normal talk on traction seems to drift (no pun intended ) to tires. I'd like to discuss suspension setups. The first thing you hear about from people with stock suspensions is that they get massive wheel hop in a FWD car. So the natural thought is that a good stiff suspension would help that. Does that really help or does it make it so that all of the weight is pulled off the front wheels during the initial weight transfer and your left with nothing?

One thought is that the rear suspension should be VERY stiff but the front suspension should allow for some travel but have good dampening to prevent bounce. Maybe from a good adjustable set of coilovers. Front sway bar to help tie the front end together, obviously an LSD and good rubber. Another thing I've heard about is traction bars. For FWD??? OK, I'm old and I knew about traction bars for muscle cars back in the late 60s and early 70s but FWD, how does that work. Can anyone help me with this suspension stuff? TIA -JoeB

[thakidd]

good thread joeb.when i race my camry the only thing i do is lower the tires pressure to about 22psi and of course i do a burnout in the burnout box.i havent really encounterd any wheel hop at all like most honda guys do at the track i go to as for suspension i have just the usally tokico struts eibach springs.....

[Toysrme]

Honestly, unless you're pushing huge amounts of power it won't make a large differiance. Let's take a v6 ES 300 (overweight camry) for example. It is 61% front weight bias, with a curb weight of around 3250lbs. That's 1982lbs over the front tires, and 1267lbs over the rear.
I can't begin to think about the amount of power it would take to shift the majority of that weight bias rearwards. (greatly hindering the fwd car in a straight line acceleration)

A stiff suspension will help the wheelhop, but you are correct in your observation that fwd traction talk normally boils down too:

1. Buying better tires
2. Installing a LSD

That's because of the three, the suspension is the part of the traction equation that creates the least amount of fuss. (If you're making reasonable power)

That being said!

a good stiff suspension would help that.

Yes. In a fwd car it needs to be stiff all the way around.

One thought is that the rear suspension should be VERY stiff but the front suspension should allow for some travel but have good dampening to prevent bounce.

If all you want to do is drag strip runs, that's exactly what you want.

traction bars. For FWD??

When a vehicle accelerates, weight is transfered rearwards (as long as it's the tires providing the force/leverage to accelerate)

[JoeB]

Toysrme, I honestly have no idea what you refer to as, "huge amounts of power". You probably didn't bother to look at my car specs on my CarDomain page but it's not your average supercharged Solara. On the current build-up, I am shooting for around 400fwhp. I certainly do NOT call that huge amounts of power but it is definitely enough for weight transfer.

Weight transfer always comes from acceleration from the wheels whether it be FWD or RWD. Unless you have a jet, where else would it come from? The problem with FWD is you get that weight transfer to the rear which removes weight from the front tires. The wheels spin and reduces inertia which drops the front end. Without a propperly tuned suspension the oscillations from the combination of inertia and springs/rubber cause wheel hop. It seems with a stiffer suspension, the wheel hop is reduced. I'm trying to find recommendations on determining a setup that not only reduces wheel hop but helps with traction.

What I'm saying is I have already taken care of the LSD and tires. I'm looking for advice on the suspension setup for FWD cars in general for better 1/4 mile launch. -JoeB

[thakidd]

what tires u runnin with joeb

[Toysrme]

No joeb I didn't. Now that you've informed me of that, IMHO I still don't think weight transfer is the underlying problem.

The simple fact is that to make a camry have "only" a 50-50 weight distrobution you have to transfer hundreds of lbs rearwards. Yes, traction is lost in a FWD car as wieght is shifted. I don't think you're taking into account the amount of force it takes to throw 700lbs rearwards.

Get the back as stiff as you can make it with high tire pressure (or doughnuts running high tire pressure). The stock front suspension is too soft, it needs to be stiffer, but probably not ultra coilover stiff.
You all ready know that. You nailed it in your first post.

the rear suspension should be VERY stiff but the front suspension should allow for some travel

Since you understand it, what is the question? Were you just looking for reassurance, or are you wanting the names of suitable suspension components/makers???

you've allready got F&R sway bars
TRD 7 Piece urathane lip kit
TRD Springs
Tokiko Blue struts


thakidd
4 SSR Competitions 18x7.5" w/Goodyear Eagle F1 GSD3 (every day)
2 SSR Competitions 15x7.5" w/BF Goodrich g-Force T/A KD Drag Radial 235x60R15 (race day - front)




I like people that run GY-F1's. You're OK in my book.

[thakidd]

BF Goodrich g-Force T/A KD Drag Radial 235x60R15

how do u like thoose tires i was thinking about buying 2 for me when i go to the track.
and also how is the tread wear ...

[JoeB]

Originally Posted by thakidd

how do u like thoose tires i was thinking about buying 2 for me when i go to the track.
and also how is the tread wear ...

The tires are GREAT! They hook-up better than anything I've tried and they came HIGHLY recommended from several VERY trusted sources including Motor Sports Performance (the guys with the fastest street tire Supra in the world).

Toysrme, In my post, I was taking some educated guesses. I am by no means a suspension or traction expert. I'm hoping to find "reassurance" from someone who is familiar with the best ways to get traction in a FWD car. 50/50 weight distribution is definitely not what I'm looking for. Although that might be optimal for ralley or autocross, it is definitely not optimal for drag. I don't think the Tokico/Tein combination is the best for drag either. I'm guessing that coilovers might be better but not sure other than the fact that I can adjust dampning and other things like spring weight. I'm glad you like the Eagle F1s, they've worked out really well for me. -JoeB

[Toysrme]

I know it's not optimal LoL 99% front 1% rear would be great for a FWD drag.

What I was saying was that a stock v6 camry has roughly 61% on it's nose (even more for you than normal), and it takes gobs of power to shift enough of that weight rearwards to even make it a 50-50 split. Let alone the majority of the weight to the back.

My point was that it takes enormous amounts of power to completely unbalance most FWD cars to the point where they are at a serious disadvantage in a straight line.

[JoeB]

Ah, gotcha. Now I understand what you're saying. I was only pushing 242fwhp before and could get no traction. Of course, that was before the LSD. My car is an automatic so I can't feather the clutch either. When I launched, if I just stepped on the gas, it'd sit there and smoke'em. I would have to gradually give it the gas to take off. I just felt like I was leaving a lot of power behind at the start. Especially when I saw other people blasting off. -JoeB

[gman240]

Joe- Let's be candid for a second. There is a lot a knowledge on this board. but as for a launchin a FWD high powered car, you'd be best creating a signon at one the Honda sites (Did I say Honda, sorry) There are civics and integras in the 10s. That is where you are going to find the best tipes on setups for FWD. I look forward to your completion this week. Peace~

[CrawlingEye]

gman, I think you have some reading to do if you think the only fast fwd cars are Honda's.

This aside, there's good general info all over the web. I've read American car forums, I've read Euro car forums and so on. Now, how are you launching?
Are you power braking or are you neutral dropping? If you're neutral dropping, that's your problem. If your concern is getting off the line in an auto with more power, you can just install a high-stall tq converter.
If your problem is you're lighting up your tires, I think your next best place to look would be either coilovers or simply better tires. A pair of drag slicks and a set of steelies or another set of rims will work wonders... or depending on what tires you're using, you may be able to just get a better street radial.

I'm sure none of this is new to you, but I think your 'rubber' comment was likely right on the money.

[gman240]

Originally Posted by CrawlingEye

gman, I think you have some reading to do if you think the only fast fwd cars are Honda's.

This aside, there's good general info all over the web. I've read American car forums, I've read Euro car forums and so on. Now, how are you launching?
Are you power braking or are you neutral dropping? If you're neutral dropping, that's your problem. If your concern is getting off the line in an auto with more power, you can just install a high-stall tq converter.
If your problem is you're lighting up your tires, I think your next best place to look would be either coilovers or simply better tires. A pair of drag slicks and a set of steelies or another set of rims will work wonders... or depending on what tires you're using, you may be able to just get a better street radial.

I'm sure none of this is new to you, but I think your 'rubber' comment was likely right on the money.

Crawlingeye- Did I say they are the ONLY ones, likewise, read more carefully. Per manufacturer, you will find more fast FWD Honda/Acuras on the planet than any other high powered FWD car. How many people on TN are going to have knowledge and experience taking a 3400 lb (with driver and some gas) with an automatic and a car with a large amount of HP and Torque at a relatively low RPM. Joe- I have a lot of respect for you as you know, your biggest challenge is the fact your car will be in a class that has the biggest handicap. Most fast front wheel cars are manual trans and have their power band higher, disallowing the power to come on too fast. I know you already have a high stall TC but even so, that will help somewhat. You have a great set of wheels and tires. Your biggest challenge will be experimental with suspension. You will probably go through a handful of scenarios b4 you find the best hookup. I really believe that this board will be of small resource for the simple fact that folks haven't had the experience with the extreme of your animal (with all due respect to everyone who should have challenge w/ this). The track is going to be a blast for you because you are part of the blacksheep crowd (respect). You will have equally as much fun cruuisin the highways of MD kicking the a$$ of most every fast sedan and sports car this side of 100G's. Chow4now

[Wraith]

Joeb... in Tires size think bigger !!! 255 if you run a drag radial... You need as much contact patch as possible... LSD is a must have ( let me know if you want a KAAZ unit), and if your squeezing... squeeze in the middle of 2nd or starting of 3rd and squeeze till the end of each gear... Do a really good burnout, at 10 to 15 seconds worth.. This only pretty much applies to turbo guys short shift first and get into 2nd gear...

gman: thanx for the vote of confidents... there alot of us camry owners that have highpower cars...

[JoeB]

Originally Posted by Wraith

Joeb... in Tires size think bigger !!! 255 if you run a drag radial... You need as much contact patch as possible... LSD is a must have ( let me know if you want a KAAZ unit), and if your squeezing... squeeze in the middle of 2nd or starting of 3rd and squeeze till the end of each gear... Do a really good burnout, at 10 to 15 seconds worth.. This only pretty much applies to turbo guys short shift first and get into 2nd gear...

gman: thanx for the vote of confidents... there alot of us camry owners that have highpower cars...

Wraith, thanks for the reply. I've been watching your progress on other forums for years now and have huge respect. I have an LSD from IPT Performance Transmissions. My car is an automatic so KAAZ doesn't have anything for me. They even told me you can't get one for an automatic. How do you get 255 rubber under my wheel well and still drive it on the street? Wouldn't it rub like crazy? I don't have a support vehicle following me to the track. I thought I was pushing it a little with the tires I bought. As far as hitting the N20, I'm using an RPM trigger switch to kick it in somewhere in the 3000+ RPM range and cutting it out for safety just before redline (6200 to start with).

I think gman has some very good points. Very bold to say to visit a Honda forum on a Toyota forum but still very good points. Now if we all put our pride aside for a moment, I think he's right. How many serious front wheel drive Toyotas are there? Saturn and Honda have been fighting this problem for quite a while. My wheels, SSR Competitions are GREAT and VERY light. My Tires, BFG g-Force T/A KDs are about the best rated drag radials out there. I know very little about the suspension and expect that is my weak point. I am running Tokico blue struts with the Eibach springs. Common setup but may not be the best for launching. I have a set of D2 coilovers in the mail that I'm hoping will improve things. Simply installing the coilovers is only half the battle I think(?). I don't know the ramifications of raising, lowering, increasing/decreasing dampening etc... -JoeB