2000 Avalon - SLUDGE Story

I bought a used 2000 Avalon XL last April (2005) with 70,022 miles on it.
CarFax showed it has one previous owner (a private lease) in the Los
Angeles area. Shortly after I had it, I noticed blue/grey smoke on
startup, but only occassionally. The Toyota dealer could not repeat the
problem. A highway trip of about 170 miles revealed oil useage of about 1
quart, same on the return.

Took it to the Toyota dealer and they said they would inspect it for the
famous "gel" problem, and if it was gelled, Toyota would rebuild or
replace the engine. They pulled the valve cover, found a small amount of
sludge, but determined it did not qualify for the "gel" program. However,
they did decide it needed an engine rebuild. Fortunately, I had a Toyota
extended care warranty, which covered that problem.

Toyota intitially approved a rebuild of the existing engine, but would not
approve a short block replacement. However, when the dealer got the
engine opened up, they decided a new (factory rebuilt) short block was
called for and convinced Toyota to cover it under the warranty.

The block was replaced, the head was rebuilt, timing belt, water pump,
plugs, etc. were all replaced and the car returned to me.

Should be fixed, right? Wrong! EXACTLY the same symptoms: smoke on
startup, used a quart of oil in less than 200 miles.

Puzzlement! What could still be wrong? Dealer thought perhaps bad short
block or bad head rebuild and suggested taking engine apart again. I
suggested that since the symptoms had not changed at all, it was more
likely something that had not be changed.

The only thing I could think of was something to do with the crankcase
ventilation system pumping oil into the intake manifold.

Did a search of various Toyota sites (including this group) and found that
Toyota had discovered a ventilation problem with the year 2000 era V-6
valve covers. Apparently the baffles would clog with sludge that couldn't
be cleaned out causing the symptoms I had observed. As a result Toyota
resigned the valve covers (replacement of the valve covers was considered
cheaper than cleaning and modifying the existing valve cover baffles).

I printed out all of the info I found on the internet and gave them to the
service manager. He called Toyota and they confirmed the issue with the
valve covers and agreed to replace them under my extended care warranty.

The bottom line is, the valve covers were replaced, and the problem was
finally fixed. The service manager is now wondering if he could have
gotten away with simply changing the valve covers in the first place and
not rebuilding the engine at all.

He is probably correct that simply replacing the valve covers would have
solved my oil problem, but I would have been left with a worn, sludged
engine, so I am happy it worked out the way it did. As it is, I now have
a 2000 Avalon with 72,000 miles on it, but with essentially a completely
new engine. And except for a few maintenance items I had to pay for, like
the timing belt and new iridium plugs, the new engine was fully covered by
the warranty (the warranty cost $1,000 on top of the price of the used
car, however).

I am finally a happy camper. Got to know the service manager and his
engine tech real well also. I think we all got an education. This is a
fairly small dealership in a small town out in the boonies, and they
rarely see a Toyota engine failure, so this was all new to them.

Merritt

On Mon, 05 Dec 2005 04:03:59 +0000, Merritt Mullen wrote:
[color=blue]
> He is probably correct that simply replacing the valve covers would have
> solved my oil problem, but I would have been left with a worn, sludged
> engine, so I am happy it worked out the way it did. As it is, I now have
> a 2000 Avalon with 72,000 miles on it, but with essentially a completely
> new engine. And except for a few maintenance items I had to pay for, like
> the timing belt and new iridium plugs, the new engine was fully covered by
> the warranty (the warranty cost $1,000 on top of the price of the used
> car, however).
>
> I am finally a happy camper. Got to know the service manager and his
> engine tech real well also. I think we all got an education. This is a
> fairly small dealership in a small town out in the boonies, and they
> rarely see a Toyota engine failure, so this was all new to them.[/color]

WOW! Ray O would have NEVER approved all this work! ;)


--
Have your Virtual Pet spayed/neutered!!

"Merritt Mullen" <mmullen8014@mchsi.com> wrote in message
news:mmullen8014-6F6AA3.20035804122005@netnews.asp.att.net...[color=blue]
>I bought a used 2000 Avalon XL last April (2005) with 70,022 miles on it.
> CarFax showed it has one previous owner (a private lease) in the Los
> Angeles area. Shortly after I had it, I noticed blue/grey smoke on
> startup, but only occassionally. The Toyota dealer could not repeat the
> problem. A highway trip of about 170 miles revealed oil useage of about 1
> quart, same on the return.
>
> Took it to the Toyota dealer and they said they would inspect it for the
> famous "gel" problem, and if it was gelled, Toyota would rebuild or
> replace the engine.
> They pulled the valve cover, found a small amount of
> sludge, but determined it did not qualify for the "gel" program.[/color]

MAKE A NOTE: Small amout of sludge but not a detrimental amount.

snip[color=blue]
> The bottom line is, the valve covers were replaced, and the problem was
> finally fixed. The service manager is now wondering if he could have
> gotten away with simply changing the valve covers in the first place and
> not rebuilding the engine at all.
>
> He is probably correct that simply replacing the valve covers would have
> solved my oil problem, but I would have been left with a worn, sludged
> engine,[/color]
snip[color=blue]
> Merritt[/color]

You stated at the top that the engine has only a little sludge. Now it's
worn and sludged.

At any rate, the dealer really needs to review the diagnosing technician's
skill and knowledge to say nothing of the service department's
responsibility to keep its technicians advised of service bulletins as they
are published.

Yes, lucky you! :^)

"Hachiroku" <Trueno@ae86.GTS> wrote in message
news:pan.2005.12.05.04.18.37.205992@ae86.GTS...[color=blue]
> On Mon, 05 Dec 2005 04:03:59 +0000, Merritt Mullen wrote:
>[color=green]
>> He is probably correct that simply replacing the valve covers would have
>> solved my oil problem, but I would have been left with a worn, sludged
>> engine, so I am happy it worked out the way it did. As it is, I now have
>> a 2000 Avalon with 72,000 miles on it, but with essentially a completely
>> new engine. And except for a few maintenance items I had to pay for,
>> like
>> the timing belt and new iridium plugs, the new engine was fully covered
>> by
>> the warranty (the warranty cost $1,000 on top of the price of the used
>> car, however).
>>
>> I am finally a happy camper. Got to know the service manager and his
>> engine tech real well also. I think we all got an education. This is a
>> fairly small dealership in a small town out in the boonies, and they
>> rarely see a Toyota engine failure, so this was all new to them.[/color]
>
> WOW! Ray O would have NEVER approved all this work! ;)
>
>
> --
> Have your Virtual Pet spayed/neutered!![/color]

I would not have had to get involved with this situation because it was an
ExtraCare transaction, not a warranty transaction. That said, as Philip
mentioned, the dealership does need to review service bulletins with the
technicians, preferably make copies for each tech and discuss at periodic
shop meetings so that the techs and service advisors are aware of new info.
--
Ray O
correct the return address punctuation to reply

On Mon, 05 Dec 2005 04:03:59 GMT, Merritt Mullen
<mmullen8014@mchsi.com> wrote:
[color=blue]
>I bought a used 2000 Avalon XL last April (2005) with 70,022 miles on it.
>CarFax showed it has one previous owner (a private lease) in the Los
>Angeles area. Shortly after I had it, I noticed blue/grey smoke on
>startup, but only occassionally. The Toyota dealer could not repeat the
>problem. A highway trip of about 170 miles revealed oil useage of about 1
>quart, same on the return.
>[/color]

For some reason....people that lease vehicles don't seem to give a
crap about them. They know they won't have to face the problems after
the end of lease.

Next car I buy....if it is used....I'll make damned sure the
maintenance was done....or I'm not buying it.

--

Scott in Florida

"Merritt Mullen" <mmullen8014@mchsi.com> wrote in message
news:mmullen8014-6F6AA3.20035804122005@netnews.asp.att.net...[color=blue]
>I bought a used 2000 Avalon XL last April (2005) with 70,022 miles on it.
> CarFax showed it has one previous owner (a private lease) in the Los
> Angeles area. Shortly after I had it, I noticed blue/grey smoke on
> startup, but only occassionally. The Toyota dealer could not repeat the
> problem. A highway trip of about 170 miles revealed oil useage of about 1
> quart, same on the return.
>
> Took it to the Toyota dealer and they said they would inspect it for the
> famous "gel" problem, and if it was gelled, Toyota would rebuild or
> replace the engine. They pulled the valve cover, found a small amount of
> sludge, but determined it did not qualify for the "gel" program. However,
> they did decide it needed an engine rebuild. Fortunately, I had a Toyota
> extended care warranty, which covered that problem.
>
> Toyota intitially approved a rebuild of the existing engine, but would not
> approve a short block replacement. However, when the dealer got the
> engine opened up, they decided a new (factory rebuilt) short block was
> called for and convinced Toyota to cover it under the warranty.
>
> The block was replaced, the head was rebuilt, timing belt, water pump,
> plugs, etc. were all replaced and the car returned to me.
>
> Should be fixed, right? Wrong! EXACTLY the same symptoms: smoke on
> startup, used a quart of oil in less than 200 miles.
>
> Puzzlement! What could still be wrong? Dealer thought perhaps bad short
> block or bad head rebuild and suggested taking engine apart again. I
> suggested that since the symptoms had not changed at all, it was more
> likely something that had not be changed.
>
> The only thing I could think of was something to do with the crankcase
> ventilation system pumping oil into the intake manifold.
>
> Did a search of various Toyota sites (including this group) and found that
> Toyota had discovered a ventilation problem with the year 2000 era V-6
> valve covers. Apparently the baffles would clog with sludge that couldn't
> be cleaned out causing the symptoms I had observed. As a result Toyota
> resigned the valve covers (replacement of the valve covers was considered
> cheaper than cleaning and modifying the existing valve cover baffles).
>
> I printed out all of the info I found on the internet and gave them to the
> service manager. He called Toyota and they confirmed the issue with the
> valve covers and agreed to replace them under my extended care warranty.
>
> The bottom line is, the valve covers were replaced, and the problem was
> finally fixed. The service manager is now wondering if he could have
> gotten away with simply changing the valve covers in the first place and
> not rebuilding the engine at all.
>
> He is probably correct that simply replacing the valve covers would have
> solved my oil problem, but I would have been left with a worn, sludged
> engine, so I am happy it worked out the way it did. As it is, I now have
> a 2000 Avalon with 72,000 miles on it, but with essentially a completely
> new engine. And except for a few maintenance items I had to pay for, like
> the timing belt and new iridium plugs, the new engine was fully covered by
> the warranty (the warranty cost $1,000 on top of the price of the used
> car, however).
>
> I am finally a happy camper. Got to know the service manager and his
> engine tech real well also. I think we all got an education. This is a
> fairly small dealership in a small town out in the boonies, and they
> rarely see a Toyota engine failure, so this was all new to them.
>
> Merritt[color=green][color=darkred]
>>>>>>>>>>>>[/color][/color][/color]
Great story. I'm glad it turned out well for you. I too have a 2000 Avalon
and now I'm wondering...
jor

On Mon, 5 Dec 2005 06:53:20 -0700, "jor" <jor@jor.com> wrote:
[color=blue]
>Great story. I'm glad it turned out well for you. I too have a 2000 Avalon
>and now I'm wondering...
>jor[/color]

If you have changed your oil at the prescribed times.....I'd guess you
have no problem!

If you maintain your cars like Charlene Blake...then you are in for
sludge...

--

Scott in Florida

"jor" <jor@jor.com> wrote in message
news:taSdncKvXYDZ2wnenZ2dnUVZ_sednZ2d@comcast.com...[color=blue]
>
> "Merritt Mullen" <mmullen8014@mchsi.com> wrote in message
> news:mmullen8014-6F6AA3.20035804122005@netnews.asp.att.net...[color=green]
>>I bought a used 2000 Avalon XL last April (2005) with 70,022 miles on it.
>> CarFax showed it has one previous owner (a private lease) in the Los
>> Angeles area. Shortly after I had it, I noticed blue/grey smoke on
>> startup, but only occassionally. The Toyota dealer could not repeat the
>> problem. A highway trip of about 170 miles revealed oil useage of about
>> 1
>> quart, same on the return.
>>
>> Took it to the Toyota dealer and they said they would inspect it for the
>> famous "gel" problem, and if it was gelled, Toyota would rebuild or
>> replace the engine. They pulled the valve cover, found a small amount of
>> sludge, but determined it did not qualify for the "gel" program.
>> However,
>> they did decide it needed an engine rebuild. Fortunately, I had a Toyota
>> extended care warranty, which covered that problem.
>>
>> Toyota intitially approved a rebuild of the existing engine, but would
>> not
>> approve a short block replacement. However, when the dealer got the
>> engine opened up, they decided a new (factory rebuilt) short block was
>> called for and convinced Toyota to cover it under the warranty.
>>
>> The block was replaced, the head was rebuilt, timing belt, water pump,
>> plugs, etc. were all replaced and the car returned to me.
>>
>> Should be fixed, right? Wrong! EXACTLY the same symptoms: smoke on
>> startup, used a quart of oil in less than 200 miles.
>>
>> Puzzlement! What could still be wrong? Dealer thought perhaps bad short
>> block or bad head rebuild and suggested taking engine apart again. I
>> suggested that since the symptoms had not changed at all, it was more
>> likely something that had not be changed.
>>
>> The only thing I could think of was something to do with the crankcase
>> ventilation system pumping oil into the intake manifold.
>>
>> Did a search of various Toyota sites (including this group) and found
>> that
>> Toyota had discovered a ventilation problem with the year 2000 era V-6
>> valve covers. Apparently the baffles would clog with sludge that
>> couldn't
>> be cleaned out causing the symptoms I had observed. As a result Toyota
>> resigned the valve covers (replacement of the valve covers was considered
>> cheaper than cleaning and modifying the existing valve cover baffles).
>>
>> I printed out all of the info I found on the internet and gave them to
>> the
>> service manager. He called Toyota and they confirmed the issue with the
>> valve covers and agreed to replace them under my extended care warranty.
>>
>> The bottom line is, the valve covers were replaced, and the problem was
>> finally fixed. The service manager is now wondering if he could have
>> gotten away with simply changing the valve covers in the first place and
>> not rebuilding the engine at all.
>>
>> He is probably correct that simply replacing the valve covers would have
>> solved my oil problem, but I would have been left with a worn, sludged
>> engine, so I am happy it worked out the way it did. As it is, I now have
>> a 2000 Avalon with 72,000 miles on it, but with essentially a completely
>> new engine. And except for a few maintenance items I had to pay for,
>> like
>> the timing belt and new iridium plugs, the new engine was fully covered
>> by
>> the warranty (the warranty cost $1,000 on top of the price of the used
>> car, however).
>>
>> I am finally a happy camper. Got to know the service manager and his
>> engine tech real well also. I think we all got an education. This is a
>> fairly small dealership in a small town out in the boonies, and they
>> rarely see a Toyota engine failure, so this was all new to them.
>>
>> Merritt[color=darkred]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>[/color][/color]
> Great story. I'm glad it turned out well for you. I too have a 2000 Avalon
> and now I'm wondering...
> jor[/color]

Are you wondering if your Avalon is really a Studebaker?

Are you wondering if you were supposed to be changing your Avalon's oil on
occasion?

That is my theory. Why do I have to do the major scheduled maintenance and
waste my money if I only intend to keep it for 5 years? That will be someone
else's problems. Of course, I never buy a used car.



"Scott in Florida" <JustAsk@Florida.com> wrote in message
news:76g8p1pos8cjbjk40re5fg6rm83su3mkil@4ax.com...[color=blue]
> On Mon, 05 Dec 2005 04:03:59 GMT, Merritt Mullen
> <mmullen8014@mchsi.com> wrote:
>[color=green]
>>I bought a used 2000 Avalon XL last April (2005) with 70,022 miles on it.
>>CarFax showed it has one previous owner (a private lease) in the Los
>>Angeles area. Shortly after I had it, I noticed blue/grey smoke on
>>startup, but only occassionally. The Toyota dealer could not repeat the
>>problem. A highway trip of about 170 miles revealed oil useage of about 1
>>quart, same on the return.
>>[/color]
>
> For some reason....people that lease vehicles don't seem to give a
> crap about them. They know they won't have to face the problems after
> the end of lease.
>
> Next car I buy....if it is used....I'll make damned sure the
> maintenance was done....or I'm not buying it.
>
> --
>
> Scott in Florida[/color]

Philip wrote:
[color=blue]
> At any rate, the dealer really needs to review the diagnosing technician's
> skill and knowledge[/color]

About ten years ago, I took my Ford into one of the highest rated Ford
dealers in the nation, Sanderson Ford of Glendale, Arizona, because of
a squealing sound from the front that varied with the speed of the car
but not the speed of the engine, and I mentioned this to them. I also
asked if the problem could be related to the speedometer (old style
with cable) or the brakes. I brought the car in with the wheel covers
removed, in case they had to remove the wheels to check the brakes.

An hour later, the dealer said that my problem was caused by loose
wheel covers. I reminded them that the car came in without wheel
covers and that it squealed when driven that way.

Another hour later, they said the squeal was due to a bad serpentine
belt tensioner. I asked how that could cause a noise that varied with
the speed of the car instead of the speed of the engine, but they only
gave me an indefinite answer. Right after I got on the road, the
squeal returned, so I went back to the dealer. This time they replaced
the speedo cable, and the noise disappeared.

What I don't understand is, why wasn't the speedo one of the first
things they checked, considering how simple it is to disconnect its
cable and do a test drive?

In article <76g8p1pos8cjbjk40re5fg6rm83su3mkil@4ax.com>,
Scott in Florida <JustAsk@Florida.com> wrote:
[color=blue]
> On Mon, 05 Dec 2005 04:03:59 GMT, Merritt Mullen
> <mmullen8014@mchsi.com> wrote:
>[color=green]
> >I bought a used 2000 Avalon XL last April (2005) with 70,022 miles on it.
> >CarFax showed it has one previous owner (a private lease) in the Los
> >Angeles area. Shortly after I had it, I noticed blue/grey smoke on
> >startup, but only occassionally. The Toyota dealer could not repeat the
> >problem. A highway trip of about 170 miles revealed oil useage of about 1
> >quart, same on the return.
> >[/color]
>
> For some reason....people that lease vehicles don't seem to give a
> crap about them. They know they won't have to face the problems after
> the end of lease.[/color]

That is a FACT!! I know a couple of folks that lease and they drive the
crap out of them. Now rentals, I also know a couple of former
co-workers who drove the crap out of every rental car they rented. To
these people they are throw away.


[color=blue]
>
> Next car I buy....if it is used....I'll make damned sure the
> maintenance was done....or I'm not buying it.[/color]
--

larry moe 'n curly wrote:
[color=blue]
> About ten years ago, I took my Ford into one of the highest rated Ford
> dealers in the nation,[/color]

I wonder who actually rates these dealers so highly? The car makers
themselves? My father had a Grand Prix that he bought at a "highly rated"
GM dealer. But it took this dealer about 5 tries to get a power window
working again correctly. And it took 3 check engine light incidents and 2
oxygen sensor replacements to correct a problem that turned out to be
carbon build-up in the EGR system. Both of these problems were fairly
common on this particular model too.

I don't trust dealer awards. Word of mouth remains the best means of
knowing how good or bad a dealer or mechanic is.

On Mon, 5 Dec 2005 00:08:14 -0600, "Ray O"
<rokigawa@tristarassociatesDOT.com> wrote:
[color=blue]
> the dealership does need to review service bulletins with the
>technicians, preferably make copies for each tech and discuss at periodic
>shop meetings so that the techs and service advisors are aware of new info.[/color]

This works in theory but fails in reality due to the sheer volume of
TSBs. In the OP's case (2000 model year) the TSB was probably
published four or five years ago. Apparently there is no efficient way
to search for TSBs relevant to a particular issue.

regards
A.G.

"High Tech Misfit" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:pan.2005.12.05.21.38.49.228138@hightech.misfit...[color=blue]
> larry moe 'n curly wrote:
>[color=green]
>> About ten years ago, I took my Ford into one of the highest rated Ford
>> dealers in the nation,[/color]
>
> I wonder who actually rates these dealers so highly? The car makers
> themselves? My father had a Grand Prix that he bought at a "highly rated"
> GM dealer. But it took this dealer about 5 tries to get a power window
> working again correctly. And it took 3 check engine light incidents and 2
> oxygen sensor replacements to correct a problem that turned out to be
> carbon build-up in the EGR system. Both of these problems were fairly
> common on this particular model too.
>
> I don't trust dealer awards. Word of mouth remains the best means of
> knowing how good or bad a dealer or mechanic is.[/color]

Toyota dealer service awards are based on a number of criteria, including
customer responses to factory surveys; having master techs, having all
special service tools, factory service manuals, and service bulletins;
having shop equipment like brake lathes, wheel balancers, etc; having
trained service managers and service advisors; having a parts inventory that
results in minimal down time for warranty repairs; and having a facility
large enough to handle their average daily service load; and controlling
warranty expenses.
--
Ray O
correct the return address punctuation to reply

"Registered User" <n4jvp@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:89d9p11e0jcr0mo3odvk5erp2kch6rmk0p@4ax.com...[color=blue]
> On Mon, 5 Dec 2005 00:08:14 -0600, "Ray O"
> <rokigawa@tristarassociatesDOT.com> wrote:
>[color=green]
>> the dealership does need to review service bulletins with the
>>technicians, preferably make copies for each tech and discuss at periodic
>>shop meetings so that the techs and service advisors are aware of new
>>info.[/color]
>
> This works in theory but fails in reality due to the sheer volume of
> TSBs. In the OP's case (2000 model year) the TSB was probably
> published four or five years ago. Apparently there is no efficient way
> to search for TSBs relevant to a particular issue.
>
> regards
> A.G.[/color]

I don't know what the current volume of TSB's are, but Toyota used to
publish about 10 a month. For and GM used to publish around 100. I read
every one that came across my desk and even if I didn't remember the details
of the TSB, I did remember that one was issued for a particular condition.
Toyota publishes indexes of the TSB's s by subject and affected series so a
quick scan of the index can tell you if one has been issued for a particular
condition. I have not checked lately, but I'm sure there is a computerized
database of TSB's that could quickly tell a service advisor or tech about a
particular condition.
--
Ray O
correct the return address punctuation to reply