ford developing hybrid 300% more efficient than toyota

[url]http://www.newtechspy.com/articles06/hydraulichybrid.html[/url]


---Ford is developing a new form of automotive propulsion, and the
implications for the American Auto Industry are huge. The Hydraulic
Hybrid could be the greatest innovation since the internal combustion
engine itself, and Ford is on the inside track with its F-150 Hybrid.
New Tech Spy Has learned details about the system that are simply
amazing and could put Ford in a commanding position in the fiercely
competitive full size pickup market.
---The Idea behind the current crop of Hybrid cars is well known; the
cars main energy comes from gasoline which recharges batteries that
move the car at low speeds. Hydraulic Hybrids work in the same manner,
only instead of batteries, excess energy is stored in hydraulic
cylinders.That in itself is not revolutionary, except for the fact that
Nickel Metal Hydride batteries used today are not an efficient way to
store energy, and hydraulic storage blows them away with 3X the
efficiency. Even next generation Lithium Ion batteries do not come
close to Hydraulic Energy Storage.
---The standard F-150 has a curb weight of about 4800 lbs., which is
65% greater than theToyota Prius, yet incredibly the Hydraulic F-150
with a continuously variable transmission matches the Prius with 60mpg
city rating, that’s an amazing 400% increase over its gasoline version.
---The F-150 makes for a perfect host for Hydraulic Hybrid technology
because of its height and body on frame construction, adding this
system to smaller vehicles will be challenging, but with those kind of
numbers small vehicles as we know them may become obsolete...The
Hydraulic F-150 is currently scheduled for launch in August of 2008,
can Ford work out all the bugs by then? The people are waiting for Ford
to come through in the clutch.

badgolferman wrote:[color=blue]
> [url]http://www.newtechspy.com/articles06/hydraulichybrid.html[/url]
>
>
> ---Ford is developing a new form of automotive propulsion, and the
> implications for the American Auto Industry are huge. The Hydraulic
> Hybrid could be the greatest innovation since the internal combustion
> engine itself, and Ford is on the inside track with its F-150 Hybrid.
> New Tech Spy Has learned details about the system that are simply
> amazing and could put Ford in a commanding position in the fiercely
> competitive full size pickup market.
> ---The Idea behind the current crop of Hybrid cars is well known; the
> cars main energy comes from gasoline which recharges batteries that
> move the car at low speeds. Hydraulic Hybrids work in the same manner,
> only instead of batteries, excess energy is stored in hydraulic
> cylinders.That in itself is not revolutionary, except for the fact that
> Nickel Metal Hydride batteries used today are not an efficient way to
> store energy, and hydraulic storage blows them away with 3X the
> efficiency. Even next generation Lithium Ion batteries do not come
> close to Hydraulic Energy Storage.
> ---The standard F-150 has a curb weight of about 4800 lbs., which is
> 65% greater than theToyota Prius, yet incredibly the Hydraulic F-150
> with a continuously variable transmission matches the Prius with 60mpg
> city rating, that's an amazing 400% increase over its gasoline version.
> ---The F-150 makes for a perfect host for Hydraulic Hybrid technology
> because of its height and body on frame construction, adding this
> system to smaller vehicles will be challenging, but with those kind of
> numbers small vehicles as we know them may become obsolete...The
> Hydraulic F-150 is currently scheduled for launch in August of 2008,
> can Ford work out all the bugs by then? The people are waiting for Ford
> to come through in the clutch.[/color]

Hydraulic cylinders? Is that something like using compressed air as a
storage device?

> The Hydraulic F-150 is currently scheduled for launch in August of 2008,[color=blue]
> can Ford work out all the bugs by then? The people are waiting for Ford
> to come through in the clutch.[/color]

everyone and his grandmother has something revolutionary coming out in
a few years from now

Something possibly coming late 2008 is not exciting

"badgolferman" <REMOVETHISbadgolferman@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:xn0eiie0h1ah8m1004@news.readfreenews.net...[color=blue]
> [url]http://www.newtechspy.com/articles06/hydraulichybrid.html[/url]
>
>
> ---Ford is developing a new form of automotive propulsion, and the
> implications for the American Auto Industry are huge. The Hydraulic
> Hybrid could be the greatest innovation since the internal combustion
> engine itself, and Ford is on the inside track with its F-150 Hybrid.
> New Tech Spy Has learned details about the system that are simply
> amazing and could put Ford in a commanding position in the fiercely
> competitive full size pickup market.
> ---The Idea behind the current crop of Hybrid cars is well known; the
> cars main energy comes from gasoline which recharges batteries that
> move the car at low speeds. Hydraulic Hybrids work in the same manner,
> only instead of batteries, excess energy is stored in hydraulic
> cylinders.That in itself is not revolutionary, except for the fact that
> Nickel Metal Hydride batteries used today are not an efficient way to
> store energy, and hydraulic storage blows them away with 3X the
> efficiency. Even next generation Lithium Ion batteries do not come
> close to Hydraulic Energy Storage.
> ---The standard F-150 has a curb weight of about 4800 lbs., which is
> 65% greater than theToyota Prius, yet incredibly the Hydraulic F-150
> with a continuously variable transmission matches the Prius with 60mpg
> city rating, that's an amazing 400% increase over its gasoline version.
> ---The F-150 makes for a perfect host for Hydraulic Hybrid technology
> because of its height and body on frame construction, adding this
> system to smaller vehicles will be challenging, but with those kind of
> numbers small vehicles as we know them may become obsolete...The
> Hydraulic F-150 is currently scheduled for launch in August of 2008,
> can Ford work out all the bugs by then? The people are waiting for Ford
> to come through in the clutch.[/color]

The article I read said that the technology was being developed by the EPA
and was being transferred to Ford. The hydraulic technology's biggest
advantage is in vehicles that to a lot of start and stops and the weight of
the hydraulic tanks make it more useful in heavier vehicles like trucks than
in light cars. The technology will be tested by UPS and in garbage trucks,
which are heavy and do a lot of starts and stops. A drawback to the system
is that vehicles get worse mileage than their conventional counterparts on
highways because of the added weight being carried, something that could be
a drawback for consumer use, where lower highway mileage might be a
disincentive to purchase.
--

Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)

Ray O wrote:

<snip>
[color=blue]
> The article I read said that the technology was being developed by the EPA
> and was being transferred to Ford.[/color]

Nice!

[url]http://www.epa.gov/otaq/technology/index.htm[/url]

Quoting from the site:

EPA is a research leader in the application of hydraulics in vehicles.
Hydraulic hybrid technology uses a hydraulic energy storage and
propulsion system in the vehicle. This hydraulic system captures and
stores a large fraction of the energy normally wasted in vehicle
braking and uses this energy to help propel the vehicle during the next
vehicle acceleration. The hydraulic system also enables the engine to
operate more efficiently when it is needed.

Hydraulic hybrids draw from two sources of power to operate the vehicle
- the diesel or gasoline engine and the hydraulic components. In other
words, a typical diesel-powered or gasoline powered vehicle can be
fitted with hydraulic components as a secondary energy storage system.
The primary hydraulic components are two hydraulic accumulator vessels
(a high-pressure accumulator capable of storing hydraulic fluid
compressing inert nitrogen gas and a low-pressure accumulator) and one
or more hydraulic pump/motor units.

Benefits of Hydraulic Technology. Hydraulic drivetrains are
particularly attractive for vehicle applications that entail a
significant amount of stop-and-go driving, such as urban delivery
trucks or school buses. A major benefit of a hydraulic hybrid vehicle
is the ability to capture and use a large percentage of the energy
normally lost in vehicle braking. Hydraulic hybrids can quickly and
efficiently store and release great amounts of energy due to a higher
power density. This is a critical factor in maximizing braking energy
recovered and increasing the fuel economy benefit. While the primary
benefit of hydraulics is higher fuel economy, hydraulics also increase
vehicle acceleration performance. Hydraulic hybrid technology
cost-effectively allows the engine speed or torque to be independent of
vehicle speed resulting in cleaner and more efficient engine operation.

Future of Hydraulics. Hydraulic hybrid systems create a unique
opportunity to optimize engine operations. EPA has produced research
concept vehicles that demonstrate the hydraulic technology. One
concept vehicle is an urban delivery truck that uses hydraulic "launch
assist." This delivery truck retains its conventional engine and
transmission, but adds on a hydraulics package optimized for fuel
economy. The next generation of hydraulic vehicles involves fully
integrating hydraulic technology. In this configuration, the "full"
hydraulic hybrid replaces the conventional drivetrain with a hydraulic
drivetrain and eliminates the need for a transmission and transfer
case. Using the full hydraulic drive in conjunction with EPA's clean
diesel combustion technology is projected to improve fuel economy even
more.

EPA also has achieved major breakthroughs in designing hydraulic
accumulators and pump/motors to be more efficient, smaller, and lighter
for motor vehicle applications, which will help improve fuel
efficiency. EPA currently has cooperative research and development
agreements with several private sector partners to further the
development of hydraulics. (For additional information, see
Partnerships.)

"badgolferman" <REMOVETHISbadgolferman@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:xn0eiie0h1ah8m1004@news.readfreenews.net...[color=blue]
> [url]http://www.newtechspy.com/articles06/hydraulichybrid.html[/url]
>
> ---Ford is developing a new form of automotive propulsion, and the
> implications for the American Auto Industry are huge. The Hydraulic
> Hybrid could be the greatest innovation since the internal combustion
> engine itself, and Ford is on the inside track with its F-150 Hybrid.
> New Tech Spy Has learned details about the system that are simply
> amazing and could put Ford in a commanding position in the fiercely
> competitive full size pickup market.
> ---The Idea behind the current crop of Hybrid cars is well known; the
> cars main energy comes from gasoline which recharges batteries that
> move the car at low speeds. Hydraulic Hybrids work in the same manner,
> only instead of batteries, excess energy is stored in hydraulic
> cylinders.That in itself is not revolutionary, except for the fact that
> Nickel Metal Hydride batteries used today are not an efficient way to
> store energy, and hydraulic storage blows them away with 3X the
> efficiency. Even next generation Lithium Ion batteries do not come
> close to Hydraulic Energy Storage.
> ---The standard F-150 has a curb weight of about 4800 lbs., which is
> 65% greater than theToyota Prius, yet incredibly the Hydraulic F-150
> with a continuously variable transmission matches the Prius with 60mpg
> city rating, that's an amazing 400% increase over its gasoline version.
> ---The F-150 makes for a perfect host for Hydraulic Hybrid technology
> because of its height and body on frame construction, adding this
> system to smaller vehicles will be challenging, but with those kind of
> numbers small vehicles as we know them may become obsolete...The
> Hydraulic F-150 is currently scheduled for launch in August of 2008,
> can Ford work out all the bugs by then? The people are waiting for Ford
> to come through in the clutch.[/color]

It's an interesting article and thank you for calling it to our attention
but I have some trouble believing the claims.

Batteries are already in the neighborhood of 80% efficient. If the
hydraulic storage mechanism was somehow 100% efficient (and that's not
possible), that would make the hydraulic hybrid just 25% more efficient than
an electric hybrid, all other things being equal.

It should also be a simple thing to add an external AC charger to a
contemporary electric hybrid, making it possible for short trips to be
entirely "alternative fuel" trips (e.g., the electricity that fills the
batteries could come from coal - boo!, nuclear, solar, wind or whatever).
Increases in battery performance or capacity would be easily integrated into
an electric hybrid system. It would probably be somewhat more complicated
to "charge" the hydraulic hybrid off household AC. With an AC-chargeable
electric hybrid, some users would only very rarely need to visit a gas
station. You could even use a timer to get off-peak rates for your power.

Electric motors and generators are also, as far as I know, fairly efficient.
I once worked at a power company and one of the high-voltage AC engineers
told me that their generators were about 97% efficient, based on shaft
input. Again, a 100% efficient hydraulic system would be only very
marginally better than current hybrid technology.

As it is, hybrids on the highway have to build their electric energy as they
go along and they do this by using the gas engine in the most efficient way
possible. As it is, electric hybrids can only marginally outperform normal
cars on extended highway runs (which now have 5- or 6-speed transmissions to
help optimize highway travel). I don't see the hydraulic hybrid doing much
better than electric hybrids on the highway. Gas engine efficiency will be
the limiting factor. With its high profile, large weight and fat tires,
it's very hard to believe a pickup with a gas engine running at its optimum
efficiency is going to get anywhere near 60mpg.

If there was a way for the hydraulic hybrid to outperform the electric
hybrid, it would be in terms of speed of "charge/discharge" of the energy
storage mechanism. I believe that regenerative braking is limited by how
much current can be generated and handled by the electrical system. Hard
braking might probably overload the regenerative charging system (and the
mechanical brakes then come into play - kinetic energy is lost as waste
heat). Could be that the hydraulic system can absorb braking energy more
rapidly and wouldn't have this drawback. Then whether or not the hydraulic
hybrid gave you 300% better performance would depend on your exact duty
cycle. Your mileage may vary. ;-) This is not going to be the situation
on highway cruising so, again, 60mpg seems very far-fetched.


I got a kick out of "with those kinds of numbers, small vehicles as we know
them may become obsolete." If a 60mpg truck is possible, I want a 120mpg
car!


*** Free account sponsored by SecureIX.com ***
*** Encrypt your Internet usage with a free VPN account from [url]http://www.SecureIX.com[/url] ***

[email]onehappymadman@yahoo.com[/email] wrote:
[color=blue]
>Hydraulic cylinders? Is that something like using compressed air as a
>storage device?[/color]

Yes. Hydraulic fluid is used to transfer energy to the accumulators,
which use a compressible gas to store the energy.

Exactly. When I worked in the semi conductor industry, new technology had
to look 100 times better than current technology or it wouldn't be worth
pursuing because by the time it was perfected the old technology would be
much better. Current hybrid technology will be better in 2008.


<gosinn@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1140026463.861938.66670@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...[color=blue][color=green]
>> The Hydraulic F-150 is currently scheduled for launch in August of 2008,
>> can Ford work out all the bugs by then? The people are waiting for Ford
>> to come through in the clutch.[/color]
>
> everyone and his grandmother has something revolutionary coming out in
> a few years from now
>
> Something possibly coming late 2008 is not exciting
>[/color]

"badgolferman" <REMOVETHISbadgolferman@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:xn0eiie0h1ah8m1004@news.readfreenews.net...[color=blue]
> [url]http://www.newtechspy.com/articles06/hydraulichybrid.html[/url]
>
>
> ---Ford is developing a new form of automotive propulsion, and the
> implications for the American Auto Industry are huge. The Hydraulic
> Hybrid could be the greatest innovation since the internal combustion
> engine itself, and Ford is on the inside track with its F-150 Hybrid.
> New Tech Spy Has learned details about the system that are simply
> amazing and could put Ford in a commanding position in the fiercely
> competitive full size pickup market.
> ---The Idea behind the current crop of Hybrid cars is well known; the
> cars main energy comes from gasoline which recharges batteries that
> move the car at low speeds. Hydraulic Hybrids work in the same manner,
> only instead of batteries, excess energy is stored in hydraulic
> cylinders.That in itself is not revolutionary, except for the fact that
> Nickel Metal Hydride batteries used today are not an efficient way to
> store energy, and hydraulic storage blows them away with 3X the
> efficiency. Even next generation Lithium Ion batteries do not come
> close to Hydraulic Energy Storage.
> ---The standard F-150 has a curb weight of about 4800 lbs., which is
> 65% greater than theToyota Prius, yet incredibly the Hydraulic F-150
> with a continuously variable transmission matches the Prius with 60mpg
> city rating, that's an amazing 400% increase over its gasoline version.
> ---The F-150 makes for a perfect host for Hydraulic Hybrid technology
> because of its height and body on frame construction, adding this
> system to smaller vehicles will be challenging, but with those kind of
> numbers small vehicles as we know them may become obsolete...The
> Hydraulic F-150 is currently scheduled for launch in August of 2008,
> can Ford work out all the bugs by then? The people are waiting for Ford
> to come through in the clutch.[/color]

If Ford and GM was obliged to drill for oil as a prerequisit to selling
vehicles they'd stop peddling backwards and come up with something for real.
I can't believe the EPA is fu*king around too. 'nuff said.

Why, so you can get run over in you little 120 MPG cars buy one of those
trucks, that buyers prefer today, that can get 60 MPG ? Besides once all
vehicles can get really high fuel economy the price of gas will double or
triple to maintain the profit margins for the oil speculators. ;)

mike hunt


"DH" <dh@stargate.com> wrote in message
news:43f3940d$0$11369$6d36acad@titian.nntpserver.com...[color=blue]
> "badgolferman" <REMOVETHISbadgolferman@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:xn0eiie0h1ah8m1004@news.readfreenews.net...[color=green]
>> [url]http://www.newtechspy.com/articles06/hydraulichybrid.html[/url]
>>
>> ---Ford is developing a new form of automotive propulsion, and the
>> implications for the American Auto Industry are huge. The Hydraulic
>> Hybrid could be the greatest innovation since the internal combustion
>> engine itself, and Ford is on the inside track with its F-150 Hybrid.
>> New Tech Spy Has learned details about the system that are simply
>> amazing and could put Ford in a commanding position in the fiercely
>> competitive full size pickup market.
>> ---The Idea behind the current crop of Hybrid cars is well known; the
>> cars main energy comes from gasoline which recharges batteries that
>> move the car at low speeds. Hydraulic Hybrids work in the same manner,
>> only instead of batteries, excess energy is stored in hydraulic
>> cylinders.That in itself is not revolutionary, except for the fact that
>> Nickel Metal Hydride batteries used today are not an efficient way to
>> store energy, and hydraulic storage blows them away with 3X the
>> efficiency. Even next generation Lithium Ion batteries do not come
>> close to Hydraulic Energy Storage.
>> ---The standard F-150 has a curb weight of about 4800 lbs., which is
>> 65% greater than theToyota Prius, yet incredibly the Hydraulic F-150
>> with a continuously variable transmission matches the Prius with 60mpg
>> city rating, that's an amazing 400% increase over its gasoline version.
>> ---The F-150 makes for a perfect host for Hydraulic Hybrid technology
>> because of its height and body on frame construction, adding this
>> system to smaller vehicles will be challenging, but with those kind of
>> numbers small vehicles as we know them may become obsolete...The
>> Hydraulic F-150 is currently scheduled for launch in August of 2008,
>> can Ford work out all the bugs by then? The people are waiting for Ford
>> to come through in the clutch.[/color]
>
> It's an interesting article and thank you for calling it to our attention
> but I have some trouble believing the claims.
>
> Batteries are already in the neighborhood of 80% efficient. If the
> hydraulic storage mechanism was somehow 100% efficient (and that's not
> possible), that would make the hydraulic hybrid just 25% more efficient
> than
> an electric hybrid, all other things being equal.
>
> It should also be a simple thing to add an external AC charger to a
> contemporary electric hybrid, making it possible for short trips to be
> entirely "alternative fuel" trips (e.g., the electricity that fills the
> batteries could come from coal - boo!, nuclear, solar, wind or whatever).
> Increases in battery performance or capacity would be easily integrated
> into
> an electric hybrid system. It would probably be somewhat more complicated
> to "charge" the hydraulic hybrid off household AC. With an AC-chargeable
> electric hybrid, some users would only very rarely need to visit a gas
> station. You could even use a timer to get off-peak rates for your power.
>
> Electric motors and generators are also, as far as I know, fairly
> efficient.
> I once worked at a power company and one of the high-voltage AC engineers
> told me that their generators were about 97% efficient, based on shaft
> input. Again, a 100% efficient hydraulic system would be only very
> marginally better than current hybrid technology.
>
> As it is, hybrids on the highway have to build their electric energy as
> they
> go along and they do this by using the gas engine in the most efficient
> way
> possible. As it is, electric hybrids can only marginally outperform
> normal
> cars on extended highway runs (which now have 5- or 6-speed transmissions
> to
> help optimize highway travel). I don't see the hydraulic hybrid doing
> much
> better than electric hybrids on the highway. Gas engine efficiency will
> be
> the limiting factor. With its high profile, large weight and fat tires,
> it's very hard to believe a pickup with a gas engine running at its
> optimum
> efficiency is going to get anywhere near 60mpg.
>
> If there was a way for the hydraulic hybrid to outperform the electric
> hybrid, it would be in terms of speed of "charge/discharge" of the energy
> storage mechanism. I believe that regenerative braking is limited by how
> much current can be generated and handled by the electrical system. Hard
> braking might probably overload the regenerative charging system (and the
> mechanical brakes then come into play - kinetic energy is lost as waste
> heat). Could be that the hydraulic system can absorb braking energy more
> rapidly and wouldn't have this drawback. Then whether or not the
> hydraulic
> hybrid gave you 300% better performance would depend on your exact duty
> cycle. Your mileage may vary. ;-) This is not going to be the situation
> on highway cruising so, again, 60mpg seems very far-fetched.
>
>
> I got a kick out of "with those kinds of numbers, small vehicles as we
> know
> them may become obsolete." If a 60mpg truck is possible, I want a 120mpg
> car!
>
>
> *** Free account sponsored by SecureIX.com ***
> *** Encrypt your Internet usage with a free VPN account from
> [url]http://www.SecureIX.com[/url] ***[/color]

Get real, there is no other fuel on the market, or near to coming to market,
that can come anywhere close to replacing gasoline as a motor fuel in the
next 50 years, none. All ANY of the alternate fuels can do is REDUCE the
need for MORE gasoline in the interim, period. Anybody who thinks otherwise
is a prim candidate to buy that bridge in Brooklyn ;)


mike hunt


"mark_digital©" <976@no-spam-comcast.net> wrote in message
news:D8-dnULLgd9LLG7enZ2dnUVZ_t6dnZ2d@comcast.com...[color=blue]
>
> "badgolferman" <REMOVETHISbadgolferman@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:xn0eiie0h1ah8m1004@news.readfreenews.net...[color=green]
>> [url]http://www.newtechspy.com/articles06/hydraulichybrid.html[/url]
>>
>>
>> ---Ford is developing a new form of automotive propulsion, and the
>> implications for the American Auto Industry are huge. The Hydraulic
>> Hybrid could be the greatest innovation since the internal combustion
>> engine itself, and Ford is on the inside track with its F-150 Hybrid.
>> New Tech Spy Has learned details about the system that are simply
>> amazing and could put Ford in a commanding position in the fiercely
>> competitive full size pickup market.
>> ---The Idea behind the current crop of Hybrid cars is well known; the
>> cars main energy comes from gasoline which recharges batteries that
>> move the car at low speeds. Hydraulic Hybrids work in the same manner,
>> only instead of batteries, excess energy is stored in hydraulic
>> cylinders.That in itself is not revolutionary, except for the fact that
>> Nickel Metal Hydride batteries used today are not an efficient way to
>> store energy, and hydraulic storage blows them away with 3X the
>> efficiency. Even next generation Lithium Ion batteries do not come
>> close to Hydraulic Energy Storage.
>> ---The standard F-150 has a curb weight of about 4800 lbs., which is
>> 65% greater than theToyota Prius, yet incredibly the Hydraulic F-150
>> with a continuously variable transmission matches the Prius with 60mpg
>> city rating, that's an amazing 400% increase over its gasoline version.
>> ---The F-150 makes for a perfect host for Hydraulic Hybrid technology
>> because of its height and body on frame construction, adding this
>> system to smaller vehicles will be challenging, but with those kind of
>> numbers small vehicles as we know them may become obsolete...The
>> Hydraulic F-150 is currently scheduled for launch in August of 2008,
>> can Ford work out all the bugs by then? The people are waiting for Ford
>> to come through in the clutch.[/color]
>
> If Ford and GM was obliged to drill for oil as a prerequisit to selling
> vehicles they'd stop peddling backwards and come up with something for
> real. I can't believe the EPA is fu*king around too. 'nuff said.
>[/color]

"Mike Hunter" <mikehunt2@mailcity.com> wrote in message
news:HmCdnUVXDMorJm7eUSdV9g@ptd.net...[color=blue]
> Why, so you can get run over in you little 120 MPG cars buy one of those
> trucks, that buyers prefer today, that can get 60 MPG ? Besides once[/color]
all[color=blue]
> vehicles can get really high fuel economy the price of gas will double or
> triple to maintain the profit margins for the oil speculators. ;)
>
> mike hunt[/color]

I prefer not to fund terrorists or tyrannical regimes, enlarge our trade
deficit or contribute to global warming. That's where your money is going.
Enjoy that GT, your grandchildren will enjoy the consequences.
[color=blue]
> "DH" <dh@stargate.com> wrote in message
> news:43f3940d$0$11369$6d36acad@titian.nntpserver.com...[color=green]
> > "badgolferman" <REMOVETHISbadgolferman@gmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:xn0eiie0h1ah8m1004@news.readfreenews.net...[color=darkred]
> >> [url]http://www.newtechspy.com/articles06/hydraulichybrid.html[/url]
> >>
> >> ---Ford is developing a new form of automotive propulsion, and the
> >> implications for the American Auto Industry are huge. The Hydraulic
> >> Hybrid could be the greatest innovation since the internal combustion
> >> engine itself, and Ford is on the inside track with its F-150 Hybrid.
> >> New Tech Spy Has learned details about the system that are simply
> >> amazing and could put Ford in a commanding position in the fiercely
> >> competitive full size pickup market.
> >> ---The Idea behind the current crop of Hybrid cars is well known; the
> >> cars main energy comes from gasoline which recharges batteries that
> >> move the car at low speeds. Hydraulic Hybrids work in the same manner,
> >> only instead of batteries, excess energy is stored in hydraulic
> >> cylinders.That in itself is not revolutionary, except for the fact that
> >> Nickel Metal Hydride batteries used today are not an efficient way to
> >> store energy, and hydraulic storage blows them away with 3X the
> >> efficiency. Even next generation Lithium Ion batteries do not come
> >> close to Hydraulic Energy Storage.
> >> ---The standard F-150 has a curb weight of about 4800 lbs., which is
> >> 65% greater than theToyota Prius, yet incredibly the Hydraulic F-150
> >> with a continuously variable transmission matches the Prius with 60mpg
> >> city rating, that's an amazing 400% increase over its gasoline version.
> >> ---The F-150 makes for a perfect host for Hydraulic Hybrid technology
> >> because of its height and body on frame construction, adding this
> >> system to smaller vehicles will be challenging, but with those kind of
> >> numbers small vehicles as we know them may become obsolete...The
> >> Hydraulic F-150 is currently scheduled for launch in August of 2008,
> >> can Ford work out all the bugs by then? The people are waiting for Ford
> >> to come through in the clutch.[/color]
> >
> > It's an interesting article and thank you for calling it to our[/color][/color]
attention[color=blue][color=green]
> > but I have some trouble believing the claims.
> >
> > Batteries are already in the neighborhood of 80% efficient. If the
> > hydraulic storage mechanism was somehow 100% efficient (and that's not
> > possible), that would make the hydraulic hybrid just 25% more efficient
> > than
> > an electric hybrid, all other things being equal.
> >
> > It should also be a simple thing to add an external AC charger to a
> > contemporary electric hybrid, making it possible for short trips to be
> > entirely "alternative fuel" trips (e.g., the electricity that fills the
> > batteries could come from coal - boo!, nuclear, solar, wind or[/color][/color]
whatever).[color=blue][color=green]
> > Increases in battery performance or capacity would be easily integrated
> > into
> > an electric hybrid system. It would probably be somewhat more[/color][/color]
complicated[color=blue][color=green]
> > to "charge" the hydraulic hybrid off household AC. With an[/color][/color]
AC-chargeable[color=blue][color=green]
> > electric hybrid, some users would only very rarely need to visit a gas
> > station. You could even use a timer to get off-peak rates for your[/color][/color]
power.[color=blue][color=green]
> >
> > Electric motors and generators are also, as far as I know, fairly
> > efficient.
> > I once worked at a power company and one of the high-voltage AC[/color][/color]
engineers[color=blue][color=green]
> > told me that their generators were about 97% efficient, based on shaft
> > input. Again, a 100% efficient hydraulic system would be only very
> > marginally better than current hybrid technology.
> >
> > As it is, hybrids on the highway have to build their electric energy as
> > they
> > go along and they do this by using the gas engine in the most efficient
> > way
> > possible. As it is, electric hybrids can only marginally outperform
> > normal
> > cars on extended highway runs (which now have 5- or 6-speed[/color][/color]
transmissions[color=blue][color=green]
> > to
> > help optimize highway travel). I don't see the hydraulic hybrid doing
> > much
> > better than electric hybrids on the highway. Gas engine efficiency will
> > be
> > the limiting factor. With its high profile, large weight and fat tires,
> > it's very hard to believe a pickup with a gas engine running at its
> > optimum
> > efficiency is going to get anywhere near 60mpg.
> >
> > If there was a way for the hydraulic hybrid to outperform the electric
> > hybrid, it would be in terms of speed of "charge/discharge" of the[/color][/color]
energy[color=blue][color=green]
> > storage mechanism. I believe that regenerative braking is limited by[/color][/color]
how[color=blue][color=green]
> > much current can be generated and handled by the electrical system.[/color][/color]
Hard[color=blue][color=green]
> > braking might probably overload the regenerative charging system (and[/color][/color]
the[color=blue][color=green]
> > mechanical brakes then come into play - kinetic energy is lost as waste
> > heat). Could be that the hydraulic system can absorb braking energy[/color][/color]
more[color=blue][color=green]
> > rapidly and wouldn't have this drawback. Then whether or not the
> > hydraulic
> > hybrid gave you 300% better performance would depend on your exact duty
> > cycle. Your mileage may vary. ;-) This is not going to be the[/color][/color]
situation[color=blue][color=green]
> > on highway cruising so, again, 60mpg seems very far-fetched.
> >
> >
> > I got a kick out of "with those kinds of numbers, small vehicles as we
> > know
> > them may become obsolete." If a 60mpg truck is possible, I want a[/color][/color]
120mpg[color=blue][color=green]
> > car!
> >
> >
> > *** Free account sponsored by SecureIX.com ***
> > *** Encrypt your Internet usage with a free VPN account from
> > [url]http://www.SecureIX.com[/url] ***[/color]
>
>[/color]


*** Free account sponsored by SecureIX.com ***
*** Encrypt your Internet usage with a free VPN account from [url]http://www.SecureIX.com[/url] ***

"DH" <dh@stargate.com> wrote in message
news:43f3940d$0$11369$6d36acad@titian.nntpserver.com...[color=blue]
> "badgolferman" <REMOVETHISbadgolferman@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:xn0eiie0h1ah8m1004@news.readfreenews.net...[color=green]
>> [url]http://www.newtechspy.com/articles06/hydraulichybrid.html[/url]
>>
>> ---Ford is developing a new form of automotive propulsion, and the
>> implications for the American Auto Industry are huge. The Hydraulic
>> Hybrid could be the greatest innovation since the internal combustion
>> engine itself, and Ford is on the inside track with its F-150 Hybrid.
>> New Tech Spy Has learned details about the system that are simply
>> amazing and could put Ford in a commanding position in the fiercely
>> competitive full size pickup market.
>> ---The Idea behind the current crop of Hybrid cars is well known; the
>> cars main energy comes from gasoline which recharges batteries that
>> move the car at low speeds. Hydraulic Hybrids work in the same manner,
>> only instead of batteries, excess energy is stored in hydraulic
>> cylinders.That in itself is not revolutionary, except for the fact that
>> Nickel Metal Hydride batteries used today are not an efficient way to
>> store energy, and hydraulic storage blows them away with 3X the
>> efficiency. Even next generation Lithium Ion batteries do not come
>> close to Hydraulic Energy Storage.
>> ---The standard F-150 has a curb weight of about 4800 lbs., which is
>> 65% greater than theToyota Prius, yet incredibly the Hydraulic F-150
>> with a continuously variable transmission matches the Prius with 60mpg
>> city rating, that's an amazing 400% increase over its gasoline version.
>> ---The F-150 makes for a perfect host for Hydraulic Hybrid technology
>> because of its height and body on frame construction, adding this
>> system to smaller vehicles will be challenging, but with those kind of
>> numbers small vehicles as we know them may become obsolete...The
>> Hydraulic F-150 is currently scheduled for launch in August of 2008,
>> can Ford work out all the bugs by then? The people are waiting for Ford
>> to come through in the clutch.[/color]
>
> It's an interesting article and thank you for calling it to our attention
> but I have some trouble believing the claims.
>
> Batteries are already in the neighborhood of 80% efficient. If the
> hydraulic storage mechanism was somehow 100% efficient (and that's not
> possible), that would make the hydraulic hybrid just 25% more efficient
> than
> an electric hybrid, all other things being equal.
>
> It should also be a simple thing to add an external AC charger to a
> contemporary electric hybrid, making it possible for short trips to be
> entirely "alternative fuel" trips (e.g., the electricity that fills the
> batteries could come from coal - boo!, nuclear, solar, wind or whatever).
> Increases in battery performance or capacity would be easily integrated
> into
> an electric hybrid system. It would probably be somewhat more complicated
> to "charge" the hydraulic hybrid off household AC. With an AC-chargeable
> electric hybrid, some users would only very rarely need to visit a gas
> station. You could even use a timer to get off-peak rates for your power.
>
> Electric motors and generators are also, as far as I know, fairly
> efficient.
> I once worked at a power company and one of the high-voltage AC engineers
> told me that their generators were about 97% efficient, based on shaft
> input. Again, a 100% efficient hydraulic system would be only very
> marginally better than current hybrid technology.
>
> As it is, hybrids on the highway have to build their electric energy as
> they
> go along and they do this by using the gas engine in the most efficient
> way
> possible. As it is, electric hybrids can only marginally outperform
> normal
> cars on extended highway runs (which now have 5- or 6-speed transmissions
> to
> help optimize highway travel). I don't see the hydraulic hybrid doing
> much
> better than electric hybrids on the highway. Gas engine efficiency will
> be
> the limiting factor. With its high profile, large weight and fat tires,
> it's very hard to believe a pickup with a gas engine running at its
> optimum
> efficiency is going to get anywhere near 60mpg.
>[/color]

According to the article I read, highway fuel consumption is the same or
slightly higher with the hydraulic hybrid because it stores energy only when
braking.


--

Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)

"Mike Hunter" <mikehunt2@mailcity.com> wrote in message
news:YGKdnY16q-iTX27eUSdV9g@ptd.net...[color=blue]
> Get real, there is no other fuel on the market, or near to coming to
> market, that can come anywhere close to replacing gasoline as a motor fuel
> in the next 50 years, none. All ANY of the alternate fuels can do is
> REDUCE the need for MORE gasoline in the interim, period. Anybody who
> thinks otherwise is a prim candidate to buy that bridge in Brooklyn ;)
>
>
> mike hunt
>[/color]

Hydrogen derived from methane and stored in an absorbant material instead of
compressed. Fuel cells instead of internal combustion engines. It's all here
now. Sources say the stumbling block is the cost. I say what the heck is
another 5 grand tacked on a 30 grand vehicle? New houses around here are 1/2
mil and up. What's another 10% tacked on for solar cells? My wife and I
decided we're going to do it and the heck with worrying about payback. I
switched from chemically treating my pool to making chlorine on-sight (also
makes hydrogen by the way) and the system does work. Not only is it cost
effective ($15 a month in electricity versus 200 pounds of solid chlorine at
$2.00 per pound) the unit shocks the water continually (another savings of
about $150 in chlorine specific to shock). How difficult is it to operate?
If you can turn a little dial it's not complicated at all.
We can get away from gasoline and it's cousin diesel entirely but we can't
get away from petroleum so fast because it's used for making stuff we get
our hands on every day.
But as far as using compressed air that's a joke.

But alas you too are funding terrorists or tyrannical regimes, enlarging our
trade deficit, just as you did when you bought any foreign car and are
contributing to global warming WHENEVER you drive any vehicle, if you
believe that is here your money is going. ;)


"dh" <dh@stargate.com> wrote in message
news:43f3cec4$0$17684$6d36acad@titian.nntpserver.com...[color=blue]
> "Mike Hunter" <mikehunt2@mailcity.com> wrote in message
> news:HmCdnUVXDMorJm7eUSdV9g@ptd.net...[color=green]
>> Why, so you can get run over in you little 120 MPG cars buy one of those
>> trucks, that buyers prefer today, that can get 60 MPG ? Besides once[/color]
> all[color=green]
>> vehicles can get really high fuel economy the price of gas will double or
>> triple to maintain the profit margins for the oil speculators. ;)
>>
>> mike hunt[/color]
>
> I prefer not to fund terrorists or tyrannical regimes, enlarge our trade
> deficit or contribute to global warming. That's where your money is
> going.
> Enjoy that GT, your grandchildren will enjoy the consequences.
>[/color]